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Thread: Toy gun ‘functionally identical’ to real weapon: Tamir Rice prosecutor

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    Toy gun ‘functionally identical’ to real weapon: Tamir Rice prosecutor

    In a report released Monday the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor’s Office included a photo of what it says is a real gun next to the replica gun 12-year-old Tamir Rice was using the day he was shot dead by a Cleveland, Ohio, police officer, saying the pellet gun was “functionally identical” to a real weapon.
    [ ... ]
    Rice had the toy gun when he was shot dead by Lohemann on a playground outside a Cleveland recreational center in Nov. 2014. A concerned onlooker called 911 and reported seeing someone with a gun at the playground. However, information given to the 911 operator that the suspect may have been a minor and the gun may have been fake was never passed on to dispatch.

    http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/...L%2012-28a.pdf

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...tical-to-real/

    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl...sifgDTu2Ea54sM 2300 Articles ATM but I doubt they're so well focused.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-29-2015 at 11:45 AM.
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    Anytime the gov't puts out such reports expect to be awash in BS.

    If it were you or I, would they produce a 74 page report? No.

    And we would be in jail awaiting trial.

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    You are confused. I would be dead.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    A similar incident happened here in Kalamazoo just the other day, but it didn't result in the death of a kid.

    http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...art_river_home

    I don't know if it's a training thing or just differing amounts of common sense, but clearly other departments could learn something from the KCSD.
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    I saw the kalamazoo comments. What a group they are. The consensus seemed to be "run and hide" and "if you cannot see it it is not there". Firearms are a part of our world. Why would you not teach your child to be safe rather than hope for the best if an untrained/inexperienced youth comes in contact with a weapon?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Those people don't know what a realistic toy gun is.

    I had one of these when I was a kid in the 60's. Would the antis poop if some kid had one now. Too realistic. And no orange tip.

    Some of our dads had come home from Korea with some, uh, "souvenirs", namely junky 1911's. Pop would pull the firing pin, glue a block of wood up into the mag well, and voila, best toy gun in the neighborhood. And no orange tip.

    My point is, not 1 kid ever got shot or hassled by the police or any other adults. And we played cops 'n robbers or cowboys and indians a lot then (no cable or video games), running around with these things. Nobody raised an eyebrow over it.

    Then again, not 1 kid ever tried to rob someone with one of these either.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Those people don't know what a realistic toy gun is.

    I had one of these when I was a kid in the 60's. Would the antis poop if some kid had one now. Too realistic. And no orange tip.

    Some of our dads had come home from Korea with some, uh, "souvenirs", namely junky 1911's. Pop would pull the firing pin, glue a block of wood up into the mag well, and voila, best toy gun in the neighborhood. And no orange tip.

    My point is, not 1 kid ever got shot or hassled by the police or any other adults. And we played cops 'n robbers or cowboys and indians a lot then (no cable or video games), running around with these things. Nobody raised an eyebrow over it.

    Then again, not 1 kid ever tried to rob someone with one of these either.
    Too many spankings, too likely to get some sort of great punishment for trying to rob someone with one of those toys, and people knew the difference between toy gun and real ones.

    Also people might have been more likely to be armed back then, I do not know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    In a report released Monday the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor’s Office included a photo of what it says is a real gun next to the replica gun 12-year-old Tamir Rice was using the day he was shot dead by a Cleveland, Ohio, police officer, saying the pellet gun was “functionally identical” to a real weapon.
    [ ... ]
    Rice had the toy gun when he was shot dead by Lohemann on a playground outside a Cleveland recreational center in Nov. 2014. A concerned onlooker called 911 and reported seeing someone with a gun at the playground. However, information given to the 911 operator that the suspect may have been a minor and the gun may have been fake was never passed on to dispatch.

    http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/...L%2012-28a.pdf

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...tical-to-real/

    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl...sifgDTu2Ea54sM 2300 Articles ATM but I doubt they're so well focused.
    Because we all know 12 year-olds are so much more likely to be playing in a park with real firearm instead of a pellet gun or even a toy. So much more likely that any cop is totally justified in driving up, jumping out of the patrol car, and shooting the kid dead within 4 seconds (see the video).
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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because we all know 12 year-olds are so much more likely to be playing in a park with real firearm instead of a pellet gun or even a toy. So much more likely that any cop is totally justified in driving up, jumping out of the patrol car, and shooting the kid dead within 4 seconds (see the video).
    In our Nation's Capitol, Chicago, Baltimore, (and other strict gun restricted cities). a 12 yr old on the street with a firearm is not really that uncommon.

    Try to make a life-or-death decision in 2 seconds with someone coming toward you. Real, or Not?
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    Last edited by Shovelhead; 01-03-2016 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    In our Nation's Capitol, Chicago, Baltimore, (and other strict gun restricted cities). a 12 yr old on the street with a firearm is not really that uncommon.

    Try to make a life-or-death decision in 2 seconds with someone coming toward you. Real, or Not?
    nice LEs should be able to ascertain that quite quickly instead of hopping out of their vehicle and open firing...

    one would think...

    ipse
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Timothy Loehmann, the Cleveland cop who shot Tamir Rice, failed the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department's written entrance exam (documents)
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...cleveland.html

    Cleveland officer who shot Tamir Rice had 'dismal' handgun performance for Independence police
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...cer_who_s.html

    If you ignore the facts.....the results can be whatever you want them to be.......

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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    nice LEs should be able to ascertain that quite quickly instead of hopping out of their vehicle and open firing...
    one would think...

    ipse
    I'm fortunate that I don't have to make that decision every time the phone rings.

    They might have waited just long enough to become another name here.
    http://www.nleomf.org/memorial/

    Many ways that scenario could have played out if either side had acted differently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    I'm fortunate that I don't have to make that decision every time the phone rings.

    They might have waited just long enough to become another name here.
    http://www.nleomf.org/memorial/

    Many ways that scenario could have played out if either side had acted differently.
    shovel, you are right, tho i also have not taken extensive courses in BLET or 'advanced' firearm training, but even w/o that training, i know enough not to blinding go running towards the crisis w/o ascertaining what the problem truly was. therefore, when was the last time you saw a nice LE speed their vehicle right up onto the park's lawn right next to an allegedly bad guy before the nice LEs even determined what the actual situation was...

    however, quote: 51 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty in 2014. By circumstance, 11 officers died from injuries inflicted as a result of answering disturbance calls (one of which was a domestic disturbance). Ten officers were conducting traffic pursuits or stops, eight were killed as a result of ambushes (six due to entrapment/premeditated situations and two during unprovoked attacks), and six officers were investigating suspicious persons or circumstances. Five officers sustained fatal injuries while they were performing investigative activities, four while they were engaged in tactical situations, three officers were handling persons with mental illness, and one officer was slain during a drug-related matter. Three officers were killed while attempting other arrests.

    https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...line-of-dutyso while you reference to the memorial, remember 51 deaths out of 1.6 M LEs equates to .003% (.00037% of six who supposedly died investigating suspicious persons) fatal work related injuries in an industry of men and women who are extensively trained and PAID and enjoy unqualified immunity.

    therefore, save the memorial sob as this country's citizens are dying and the boys in blue continue to control the media's spin.

    ipse
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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    All good ...........
    Unless you become one of that small percentage.

    Folks win lotteries all the time in spite of the overwhelming odds.

    Mistakes were made on both sides of the equation.
    Last edited by Shovelhead; 01-04-2016 at 06:39 AM.
    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because we all know 12 year-olds are so much more likely to be playing in a park with real firearm instead of a pellet gun or even a toy. So much more likely that any cop is totally justified in driving up, jumping out of the patrol car, and shooting the kid dead within 4 seconds (see the video).
    Quite so. The actions I saw in the video lead me to believe that boy was killed by a psycho VERY eager to kill. I fear the present judicial climate of protecting bad police action has made the job very appealing to blood thirsty rage monsters.
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    At the time of the shooting there was absolutely no threat to the general public. By driving up on the kid, and almost striking him, needlessly putting themselves in immediately threat of bodily injury, and then claimed self defense.

    The cops original statement, and I don't know if he changed it or not. Claimed he told the kid to drop the gun 3 times before firing. So go charging forward in a vehicle, step out yell drop the gun three times and then fire 2 rounds in under 4 seconds. You can't do it. Therefore in my opinion the cop lied. and I would question the entire statement as being false, and well as the report of the officer driving the car.

    What I see coming in the near future is a major pushback by the public, and the people in blue won't like what will be coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RANDYT View Post
    At the time of the shooting there was absolutely no threat to the general public. By driving up on the kid, and almost striking him, needlessly putting themselves in immediately threat of bodily injury, and then claimed self defense.

    The cops original statement, and I don't know if he changed it or not. Claimed he told the kid to drop the gun 3 times before firing. So go charging forward in a vehicle, step out yell drop the gun three times and then fire 2 rounds in under 4 seconds. You can't do it. Therefore in my opinion the cop lied. and I would question the entire statement as being false, and well as the report of the officer driving the car.

    What I see coming in the near future is a major pushback by the public, and the people in blue won't like what will be coming.
    Its already started. The ubiquitous cell phone video feature coupled with the internet is educating the public by leaps and bounds. Just the other day I saw an article where a former cop responded to Chicago's recent move to provide more tasers. The cop expressly stated that tasers were originally intended to subdue dangerous suspects without lethal force, but had morphed into pain-compliance tools. An article like that would never have appeared in mainstream media ten years ago. The media are interested because the public are interested.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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