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Thread: 'Brandishing' -- a double standard?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    'Brandishing' -- a double standard?

    This seems like a double standard. What do you all think?

    Off-duty officer points BRANDISHES gun at a man during road rage incident in Virginia Beach
    An off-duty law enforcement officer pointed a gun at another man during a road rage incident in Virginia Beach, police say.

    Multiple witnesses called 911 to report a man pointing a gun at another man, said Officer Tonya Pierce, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Beach Police Department.

    The drivers were traveling northbound on Dam Neck Road approaching London Bridge Road when one driver pulled in front of the other and stopped. The two exchanged words and a threat may have been made, police said. Witnesses said both men were standing outside of their vehicles when the off-duty officer pointed his weapon, Pierce said.

    "We think someone cut someone else off," Pierce said. "I'm not sure who cut who off."

    Police arrived and interviewed both parties involved. No injuries were reported and no arrests have been made, Pierce said. Both individuals involved were allowed to leave the scene, Pierce said. ... She declined to identify the officer or which law enforcement agency he works for.
    If, and that's important, if the enraged person was the off-duty officer, then he was in the wrong. If the other guy was the road-rage person, then the officer apparently was defending himself. Even so, I wonder what the outcome would have been if it had anyone other than an off-duty cop.
    Last edited by Repeater; 12-31-2015 at 04:59 PM.

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    Smile

    When a firearm is pointed at someone and both parties walk away then I can deduce exactly who the rager was.

    It goes like this..
    Responding Officer: sir, you know this guy is a police officer right??
    Assaulted Guy: I don't care who the hell he is.. he pointed a GUN at me!
    RO: well, you know that we can charge you with X,X,X, and more X.
    AG: I'm not the one who was the xxshole.
    RO: look, we can all go home now or we will take you in, your choice. we might even find other things to charge you with. think about it.
    AG: that guy assaulted me with a deadly weapon, if yo.....(interrupted)
    RO: OK, turn around, hands behind your back.
    AG: wait, wait.... ok ok. we can just forget this, right??
    RO: yep, be a good boy and don't make a big fuss out of this or we will be looking for you. got it ?

    tongue in cheek here, but we all know its really like that.
    Last edited by Ken56; 12-30-2015 at 06:30 PM.

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    I'm in Repeater and Ken56's camp.

    If a gun was pointed at another without justification for lethal force, then brandishing applies. Taking the news story at face value, multiple witnesses reported one pointing a gun at another.

    I simply cannot believe for even one second that if the mere mortal (not-a-cop) had been the brandisher, that he would have been able to avoid arrest. Too many reports of gun-pointing, plus the off-duty cop's report of why he was gun-pointing. The mere mortal would have been arrested on the spot if he was the gun pointer.

    So, since no arrests were made, it had to be the off-duty cop who was pointing the gun.

    Now, the only way the off-duty cop could have been justified in gun-pointing was if the mere mortal was offering him justification for lethal force (or) he was attempting arrest of an armed person. See Tennessee vs Garner. I simply cannot believe the mere mortal would avoid arrest if he had offered the off-duty cop legal justification for lethal force in the moment before the gun-pointing. It would necessarily mean the off-duty cop had probable cause to arrest the mere mortal; and no cop would turn down that opportunity. Same for attempting arrest of a known armed, dangerous person. If the cop had reason to point the gun as part of arresting the mere mortal, then he had probable cause before pulling the gun. Again, I cannot see any cop passing up the opportunity to arrest the mere mortal.

    I think Ken56 is in the ballpark. Some version of Ken56's scenario is likely what occurred. Since the cop was not charged with brandishing, Repeater's question about a double standard stands answered in my mind.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-30-2015 at 07:40 PM.
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Three words come to mind

    "WHAT THE ***K ?"
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    The "off duty officer" was a special agent for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations. VB police probably told the victim what a living hell his life could become if he pursued charges. Wind up on the no fly list, loose his ability to get/keep a security clearance, pass a background check, buy a firearm, etc. He may be headed that way now anyway.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    while i understand the ramifications the individual 'might' endure...

    however, recommend what members have suggested previously when a citizen runs into a rogue LE...file an IA complaint with the agency they work for.

    then when ramifications begin...there is legal proof the agency is retaliating...

    then let the civil proceedings begin.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    If both guys were allowed to leave without being arrested, you have your proof that the cop was the bad guy.
    Last edited by MAC702; 12-30-2015 at 09:37 PM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    If both guys were allowed to leave without being arrested, you have your proof that the cop was the bad guy.
    FOIA responding LE's report and 911 transcripts...

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    while i understand the ramifications the individual 'might' endure...

    however, recommend what members have suggested previously when a citizen runs into a rogue LE...file an IA complaint with the agency they work for.

    then when ramifications begin...there is legal proof the agency is retaliating...

    then let the civil proceedings begin.
    After you have received all of the information you requested in your Open Records (FOIA) request. Otherwise they will refuse to release it sighting open investigation/possible litigation.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    After you have received all of the information you requested in your Open Records (FOIA) request. Otherwise they will refuse to release it sighting open investigation/possible litigation.
    my FOIA suggestion was in direct response to Mac's comment re proof the incident actually occurred. you are correct if the participant initiated IA first it would shut down the FOIA request.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    my FOIA suggestion was in direct response to Mac's comment re proof the incident actually occurred. you are correct if the participant initiated IA first it would shut down the FOIA request.

    ipse
    Landstown High School is in the vicinity. Depending on where the vehicles were located, the brandishing could be a class six felony.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Excellent Catch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Landstown High School is in the vicinity. Depending on where the vehicles were located, the brandishing could be a class six felony.
    Excellent Catch! This should mean (in theory) that the usual BS (officer discretion) would not apply. After all, it's for the children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    The "off duty officer" was a special agent for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations. VB police probably told the victim what a living hell his life could become if he pursued charges. Wind up on the no fly list, loose his ability to get/keep a security clearance, pass a background check, buy a firearm, etc. He may be headed that way now anyway.
    And that's what I was thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    If both guys were allowed to leave without being arrested, you have your proof that the cop was the bad guy.
    I believe this is the consensus. And I would agree.

  15. #15
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    Story changed

    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    The "off duty officer" was a special agent for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations. VB police probably told the victim what a living hell his life could become if he pursued charges. Wind up on the no fly list, loose his ability to get/keep a security clearance, pass a background check, buy a firearm, etc. He may be headed that way now anyway.
    You know what? That's interesting -- the original article was written as "law enforcement officer" -- so the article changed.

    WAVY had a witness that revealed the perp was Homeland Security. Found it:

    Off-duty law enforcement officer Off-duty officer from Homeland Security reportedly pulled a gun on a driver
    Witness Mary Hyatt told only 10 On Your Side she was driving by the London Bridge Marketplace around 10:30 a.m. when she noticed a man face down on the ground, with the officer pointing a gun at the man’s head. Hyatt called 911.

    “He was walking like pacing back and forth in front of the gentleman that was on the ground, he’s got his gun drawn the whole time, pointing it at the head of the gentleman on the ground,” she said.

    “We don’t know the situation at all, but definitely, if he’s in law enforcement, at any level, he shouldn’t be stopping traffic, waving a gun around pointing it at somebody’s head and terrifying other people around.”
    WELL THEN!!

    Oh, and get this:
    When 10 On Your Side approached the man who had been on the ground, he indicated that police discouraged him from talking to media.
    Guess the FOIA won't turn out so well.
    Last edited by Repeater; 12-31-2015 at 05:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    SNIP

    Oh, and get this:

    When 10 On Your Side approached the man who had been on the ground, he indicated that police discouraged him from talking to media.
    Guess the FOIA won't turn out so well.
    Why would VA police not protect a VA citizen against federal criminals?

    This starts to implicate fusion centers. Was this a case of VA local cops protecting federal law enforcement at the expense of the people they are supposed to be protecting? Perhaps because the VA local cops are joined with the federal law enforcement by way of the fusion centers?

    Is there a fusion center in that area? Seems ripe for one with the federal presence. Anybody know?


    As for the FOIA, I hope the media or victim goes for it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-31-2015 at 08:18 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Why would VA police not protect a VA citizen against federal criminals?

    This starts to implicate fusion centers. Was this a case of VA local cops protecting federal law enforcement at the expense of the people they are supposed to be protecting? Perhaps because the VA local cops are joined with the federal law enforcement by way of the fusion centers?

    Is there a fusion center in that area? Seems ripe for one with the federal presence. Anybody know?


    As for the FOIA, I hope the media or victim goes for it.
    Because like the governor and the AG, they are bought and paid for by Bloomers and his anti-mob. Bloomers supports NObama and his DHS incompetent thugs.

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    The last time a LEO pulled his gun on me, I walked away with a couple of new motorcycles and a couple of guns. The "man" with the pistol should be sued/prosecuted.

    And why does this "man" still have a badge after clown cr@p like this?
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 01-01-2016 at 12:17 PM.
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    When a cop engages in a traffic stop and approaches the citizen's vehicle with a hand on his gun, that's brandishing under current law. Also constitutes assault, both a crime and a civil tort. Note that it is irrelevant that the citizen has no fear, all that's required is the apprehension of an immediate battery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    When a cop engages in a traffic stop and approaches the citizen's vehicle with a hand on his gun, that's brandishing under current law. Also constitutes assault, both a crime and a civil tort. Note that it is irrelevant that the citizen has no fear, all that's required is the apprehension of an immediate battery.
    Very interesting.

    Is there any wiggle room in the law for a cop who knows he is walking up to the traffic-stopped vehicle of a CHP holder? I'm thinking in terms of a cop who already ran the plate, either before hitting the lights to initiate the traffic stop, or runs the plates right after stopping the car, but before he walks up to the car the first time.

    I think I would be really annoyed if by holding a CHP I waived my right against this form of assault.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Very interesting.

    Is there any wiggle room in the law for a cop who knows he is walking up to the traffic-stopped vehicle of a CHP holder? I'm thinking in terms of a cop who already ran the plate, either before hitting the lights to initiate the traffic stop, or runs the plates right after stopping the car, but before he walks up to the car the first time.

    I think I would be really annoyed if by holding a CHP I waived my right against this form of assault.
    It's for officer safety. The most important thing is that cops go home at the end of their shift with no more holes than when they started their shift.

    The cop knows that the person the vehicle is registered to has a CHP but has no actual knowledge that the person in the vehicle actually has a gun in their possession. So walking up with their hand on their gun is an implied accusation that a) the person has a gun in their possession and b) that their intent would be to try to cause injury/death to the officer.

    I would be interested in knowing how many of the persons who initiated shootouts with police when involved in a traffic stop had a CHP. But knowing how many non-CHP-ers initiated shootouts vs. how many CHP-ers did so might tend to put a major crimp in the "it's for officer safety" mantra.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The cop knows that the person the vehicle is registered to has a CHP but has no actual knowledge that the person in the vehicle actually has a gun in their possession. So walking up with their hand on their gun is an implied accusation that a) the person has a gun in their possession and b) that their intent would be to try to cause injury/death to the officer.
    In Virginia, if a person could be expected to be able to see the officer walking up with her hand on her gun, would this count as assault with a deadly weapon? I think a reasonable person would certainly view such an action as threatening.

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    Technically, or what you could get a magistrate to agree with?

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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