'Brandishing' -- a double standard?

This seems like a double standard. What do you all think?

Off-duty officer [strike]points[/strike] BRANDISHES gun at a man during road rage incident in Virginia Beach

An off-duty law enforcement officer pointed a gun at another man during a road rage incident in Virginia Beach, police say.

Multiple witnesses called 911 to report a man pointing a gun at another man, said Officer Tonya Pierce, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Beach Police Department.

The drivers were traveling northbound on Dam Neck Road approaching London Bridge Road when one driver pulled in front of the other and stopped. The two exchanged words and a threat may have been made, police said. Witnesses said both men were standing outside of their vehicles when the off-duty officer pointed his weapon, Pierce said.

"We think someone cut someone else off," Pierce said. "I'm not sure who cut who off."

Police arrived and interviewed both parties involved. No injuries were reported and no arrests have been made, Pierce said. Both individuals involved were allowed to leave the scene, Pierce said. ... She declined to identify the officer or which law enforcement agency he works for.

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If, and that's important, if the enraged person was the off-duty officer, then he was in the wrong. If the other guy was the road-rage person, then the officer apparently was defending himself. Even so, I wonder what the outcome would have been if it had anyone other than an off-duty cop.

When a firearm is pointed at someone and both parties walk away then I can deduce exactly who the rager was.

It goes like this..
Responding Officer: sir, you know this guy is a police officer right??
Assaulted Guy: I don't care who the hell he is.. he pointed a GUN at me!
RO: well, you know that we can charge you with X,X,X, and more X.
AG: I'm not the one who was the xxshole.
RO: look, we can all go home now or we will take you in, your choice. we might even find other things to charge you with. think about it.
AG: that guy assaulted me with a deadly weapon, if yo.....(interrupted)
RO: OK, turn around, hands behind your back.
AG: wait, wait.... ok ok. we can just forget this, right??
RO: yep, be a good boy and don't make a big fuss out of this or we will be looking for you. got it ?

tongue in cheek here, but we all know its really like that.

I'm in Repeater and Ken56's camp.

If a gun was pointed at another without justification for lethal force, then brandishing applies. Taking the news story at face value, multiple witnesses reported one pointing a gun at another.

I simply cannot believe for even one second that if the mere mortal (not-a-cop) had been the brandisher, that he would have been able to avoid arrest. Too many reports of gun-pointing, plus the off-duty cop's report of why he was gun-pointing. The mere mortal would have been arrested on the spot if he was the gun pointer.

So, since no arrests were made, it had to be the off-duty cop who was pointing the gun.

Now, the only way the off-duty cop could have been justified in gun-pointing was if the mere mortal was offering him justification for lethal force (or) he was attempting arrest of an armed person. See Tennessee vs Garner. I simply cannot believe the mere mortal would avoid arrest if he had offered the off-duty cop legal justification for lethal force in the moment before the gun-pointing. It would necessarily mean the off-duty cop had probable cause to arrest the mere mortal; and no cop would turn down that opportunity. Same for attempting arrest of a known armed, dangerous person. If the cop had reason to point the gun as part of arresting the mere mortal, then he had probable cause before pulling the gun. Again, I cannot see any cop passing up the opportunity to arrest the mere mortal.

I think Ken56 is in the ballpark. Some version of Ken56's scenario is likely what occurred. Since the cop was not charged with brandishing, Repeater's question about a double standard stands answered in my mind.

Three words come to mind

"WHAT THE ***K ?"

The "off duty officer" was a special agent for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations. VB police probably told the victim what a living hell his life could become if he pursued charges. Wind up on the no fly list, loose his ability to get/keep a security clearance, pass a background check, buy a firearm, etc. He may be headed that way now anyway.

while i understand the ramifications the individual 'might' endure...

however, recommend what members have suggested previously when a citizen runs into a rogue LE...file an IA complaint with the agency they work for.

then when ramifications begin...there is legal proof the agency is retaliating...

then let the civil proceedings begin.

If both guys were allowed to leave without being arrested, you have your proof that the cop was the bad guy.

MAC702 said:

If both guys were allowed to leave without being arrested, you have your proof that the cop was the bad guy.

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FOIA responding LE's report and 911 transcripts...

ipse

solus said:

while i understand the ramifications the individual 'might' endure...

however, recommend what members have suggested previously when a citizen runs into a rogue LE...file an IA complaint with the agency they work for.

then when ramifications begin...there is legal proof the agency is retaliating...

then let the civil proceedings begin.

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After you have received all of the information you requested in your Open Records (FOIA) request. Otherwise they will refuse to release it sighting open investigation/possible litigation.

notalawyer said:

After you have received all of the information you requested in your Open Records (FOIA) request. Otherwise they will refuse to release it sighting open investigation/possible litigation.

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my FOIA suggestion was in direct response to Mac's comment re proof the incident actually occurred. you are correct if the participant initiated IA first it would shut down the FOIA request.

ipse

solus said:

my FOIA suggestion was in direct response to Mac's comment re proof the incident actually occurred. you are correct if the participant initiated IA first it would shut down the FOIA request.

ipse

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Landstown High School is in the vicinity. Depending on where the vehicles were located, the brandishing could be a class six felony.

Excellent Catch!

Thundar said:

Landstown High School is in the vicinity. Depending on where the vehicles were located, the brandishing could be a class six felony.

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Excellent Catch! This should mean (in theory) that the usual BS (officer discretion) would not apply. After all, it's for the children.

mobeewan said:

The "off duty officer" was a special agent for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations. VB police probably told the victim what a living hell his life could become if he pursued charges. Wind up on the no fly list, loose his ability to get/keep a security clearance, pass a background check, buy a firearm, etc. He may be headed that way now anyway.

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And that's what I was thinking.

MAC702 said:

If both guys were allowed to leave without being arrested, you have your proof that the cop was the bad guy.

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I believe this is the consensus. And I would agree.

Story changed

mobeewan said:

The "off duty officer" was a special agent for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations. VB police probably told the victim what a living hell his life could become if he pursued charges. Wind up on the no fly list, loose his ability to get/keep a security clearance, pass a background check, buy a firearm, etc. He may be headed that way now anyway.

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You know what? That's interesting -- the original article was written as "law enforcement officer" -- so the article changed.

WAVY had a witness that revealed the perp was Homeland Security. Found it:

[strike]Off-duty law enforcement officer[/strike] Off-duty officer from Homeland Security reportedly pulled a gun on a driver

Witness Mary Hyatt told only 10 On Your Side she was driving by the London Bridge Marketplace around 10:30 a.m. when she noticed a man face down on the ground, with the officer pointing a gun at the man’s head. Hyatt called 911.

“He was walking like pacing back and forth in front of the gentleman that was on the ground, he’s got his gun drawn the whole time, pointing it at the head of the gentleman on the ground,” she said.

“We don’t know the situation at all, but definitely, if he’s in law enforcement, at any level, he shouldn’t be stopping traffic, waving a gun around pointing it at somebody’s head and terrifying other people around.”

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WELL THEN!!

Oh, and get this:

When 10 On Your Side approached the man who had been on the ground, he indicated that police discouraged him from talking to media.

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Guess the FOIA won't turn out so well.

Repeater said:

SNIP

Oh, and get this:

When 10 On Your Side approached the man who had been on the ground, he indicated that police discouraged him from talking to media.

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Guess the FOIA won't turn out so well.

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Why would VA police not protect a VA citizen against federal criminals?

This starts to implicate fusion centers. Was this a case of VA local cops protecting federal law enforcement at the expense of the people they are supposed to be protecting? Perhaps because the VA local cops are joined with the federal law enforcement by way of the fusion centers?

Is there a fusion center in that area? Seems ripe for one with the federal presence. Anybody know?


As for the FOIA, I hope the media or victim goes for it.

Citizen said:

Why would VA police not protect a VA citizen against federal criminals?

This starts to implicate fusion centers. Was this a case of VA local cops protecting federal law enforcement at the expense of the people they are supposed to be protecting? Perhaps because the VA local cops are joined with the federal law enforcement by way of the fusion centers?

Is there a fusion center in that area? Seems ripe for one with the federal presence. Anybody know?


As for the FOIA, I hope the media or victim goes for it.

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Because like the governor and the AG, they are bought and paid for by Bloomers and his anti-mob. Bloomers supports NObama and his DHS incompetent thugs.

The last time a LEO pulled his gun on me, I walked away with a couple of new motorcycles and a couple of guns. The "man" with the pistol should be sued/prosecuted.

And why does this "man" still have a badge after clown cr@p like this?

When a cop engages in a traffic stop and approaches the citizen's vehicle with a hand on his gun, that's brandishing under current law. Also constitutes assault, both a crime and a civil tort. Note that it is irrelevant that the citizen has no fear, all that's required is the apprehension of an immediate battery.

user said:

When a cop engages in a traffic stop and approaches the citizen's vehicle with a hand on his gun, that's brandishing under current law. Also constitutes assault, both a crime and a civil tort. Note that it is irrelevant that the citizen has no fear, all that's required is the apprehension of an immediate battery.

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Very interesting.

Is there any wiggle room in the law for a cop who knows he is walking up to the traffic-stopped vehicle of a CHP holder? I'm thinking in terms of a cop who already ran the plate, either before hitting the lights to initiate the traffic stop, or runs the plates right after stopping the car, but before he walks up to the car the first time.

I think I would be really annoyed if by holding a CHP I waived my right against this form of assault.