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Thread: Obama set to unveil curbs on gun sellers

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    Obama set to unveil curbs on gun sellers

    According to gun industry insiders and others familiar with the proposals, the changes include requiring an expanded number of small-scale gun sellers to be licensed—and therefore conduct background checks—whenever selling a weapon.
    [ ... ]
    Obama will tighten the definition of what it means to be “engaged in the business” of firearms sales. Currently, the law says people who sell guns with the “principal objective of livelihood and profit” have to get a dealer’s license through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — and therefore conduct a background check on buyers no matter where they sell, including online or at a gun show.
    [ ... ]
    Everytown has recommended adding several factors to the definition—including selling guns in their original packaging, reselling a gun shortly after acquiring it, maintaining a certain quantity of guns for sale or selling more than 25 guns a year — as possible signals that someone needs a license.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2015/1...control-217234

    They wish no more unlicensed armories.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-31-2015 at 10:55 AM.
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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    If they actually use the phrase "principal objective of livelihood and profit" I'm going to laugh my backside off all the way to the bank.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
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    Its my property .. I'll do what I want with it .. without any government interference. Thanks.

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    Will Obama's Executive Order Cap Private Gun Sales at 50 Per Year?

    http://nevadacarry.blogspot.com/2016/01/will-obamas-executive-order-cap-private.html


    In short:

    How many at a time, or in a year, and with what intent? For instance, 10 guns, four times a year, sold by advertisement or at a gun show? Someone could still sell 40 guns that way. Online sources have variously speculated that the number is anywhere between five and twenty-five a year, or even “one gun per month.” The most accurate estimate that anyone has gleaned from the Obama Administration has come from the Washington Post with 50 guns annually and even the Justice Department conceded the difficulty in setting such a number.

    “White House officials drafted the proposal in late 2013 to apply to those dealers who sell at least 50 guns annually, after Congress had rejected legislation that would have expanded background checks more broadly to private sellers. While the White House Office of Legal Counsel and then-Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. initially concluded the regulation was legally defensible, according to several individuals involved in the discussions, some federal lawyers remained concerned that setting an arbitrary numerical threshold could leave the rule vulnerable to a challenge.”
    Nevada Carry believes 50 is the number the president will specify, saying it allows for liquidation of collections and pursuit of hobbies, etc. Gun grabbers always want to appear reasonable in their ‘common sense’ demands because they never see themselves as they potential tyrants that they are.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garand_guy View Post
    Nevada Carry believes 50 is the number the president will specify, saying it allows for liquidation of collections and pursuit of hobbies, etc. Gun grabbers always want to appear reasonable in their ‘common sense’ demands because they never see themselves as they potential tyrants that they are.
    I don't care if it is 500 a year. What gives you the right to take my guns from me? SNBI Shall Not Be Infringed.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    and how will they know if i privately sold more than 50 guns in a year?

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    as far as i am concerned, his "executive order" has not been seen by a house or a senate, nor had judicial review, IE it is NOT LAW, he can scribble all he wants, doesn't mean the people are going to follow it.

    i am still amazed he hasn't been impeached for his "unilateral" "law making" with executive actions, which is what a dictator does BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    as far as i am concerned, his "executive order" has not been seen by a house or a senate, nor had judicial review, IE it is NOT LAW, he can scribble all he wants, doesn't mean the people are going to follow it. i am still amazed he hasn't been impeached for his "unilateral" "law making" with executive actions, which is what a dictator does BTW.
    That is not how EO's work. They are cited as authority by his agencies as his direction to do so-and-so. The EO is not subject to judicial review. The results of these EO will be just another set of rules like all the rest of BATF's, for instance. The EO are not law and neither are the rest of the Code of Federal Regulations, but they are regulations with consequences.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    That is not how EO's work. They are cited as authority by his agencies as his direction to do so-and-so. The EO is not subject to judicial review. The results of these EO will be just another set of rules like all the rest of BATF's, for instance. The EO are not law and neither are the rest of the Code of Federal Regulations, but they are regulations with consequences.
    either way he is trying to impose his EO on the masses at large, IE the citizens, they are not an employed crony of the government. so how is BATF going to stop private sales? unless he raises the debt even higher and let's them run around patrolling the bad streets of 'Murica.

    and federal regulations, are also not law, nor are they to be used to impose the illusion of law on the citizenry.

    again, he should be impeached, his administration should be shut down, and all of them tried for treason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hafnhaf View Post
    and how will they know if i privately sold more than 50 guns in a year?
    My trunk latch is broken. I lost 50+ guns that were bumped out of my trunk last year. Oh well, I just make more.

    I dialed 411 but they were unconcerned ... so I guess its nothing to be concerned with.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE...p44-sec921.pdf
    18 USC 921 Definitions
    (a)
    (11) The term ‘‘dealer’’ means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term ‘‘licensed dealer’’ means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

    (21) The term ‘‘engaged in the business’’ means—
    (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, ex-changes, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
    (D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
    Obama is going to change the already defined terms as passed into law. He will be laughed out of court. As a matter of law, no executive order or code of federal regulation can change a federal statutorily passed definition, period. Only the court gets to give their opinion of the definition, not Obama.
    Last edited by color of law; 01-04-2016 at 08:05 PM.

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    Of course, if there is a numerical limit, then some way of tracking how many are bought and sold by each individual will suddenly become justified.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Perhaps the enhanced state-issued IDs that TSA will soon be requiring might be of service. Already in a national database, almost as if, hmmm.....

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Of course, if there is a numerical limit, then some way of tracking how many are bought and sold by each individual will suddenly become justified.
    And where is that in the definition I posted above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    And where is that in the definition I posted above?
    Oh, I'm not trying to say it is or isn't. I'm thinking about which parts of the their plan remain hidden.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Gun control - Executive Action

    The cat is out of the bag - here is what Obummer has decided.

    Too long to post. Warning: There are so many lies and distortions that I highly recommend putting on your tin foil hat and having Tums available on standby.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...e-and-make-our
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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Thank you for the link. I see the following as concrete proposals (highlights?):

    1. 200 new ATF agents

    2. $500 million investment to address the reporting of mental health issues (specifically altering HIPAA to allow States to pass on personal info)

    3. engage with manufacturers, retailers, and other private-sector leaders (Moms Against Rational Thought?)

    4. even 2 gun sales can trigger dealing without a license (with other unnamed factors)

    5. Back to background checks for NFA items, even with a trust

    6. Improve reporting to NICS by States

    7. FBI will hire more than 230 additional NICS examiners (50% increase)

    8. $4 million and additional personnel to enhance the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network (NIBIN) (Aren't these the folks who were completely discredited this last year for supplying flawed testimony at trial?)

    9. ATF has established an Internet Investigations Center

    10. U.S. Attorney’s Office to renew domestic violence outreach efforts

    11. The Social Security Administration will snitch to DOJ if you can't manage your benefits or have mental health issues

    12. Push development of smart guns

    13. Push development of tracking features

    There is indeed a lot to pick apart.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    So lots more money, often into programs that already proved completely useless in impacting crime levels.

    Less privacy for health data with the exclusion from HIPAA for States. The same problems of how to identify the mentally versus the dangerously mentally ill even after he acknowledges they are more likely to be victims than aggressors . The same apparent lifetime ban once on the list.

    Lifetime ban for what will no doubt be an ever widening definition of domestic abuse.

    More people and money for NICS even though its a non-factor in mass shootings.

    A few new departments full of bureaucrats.

    Allowing local law enforcement to arbitrarily prevent ownership of NFA items (no Trust/Corporation exception).

    To me the scariest parts may be the requirements for Federal departments to develop and use smart guns and gun tracing systems.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafnhaf View Post
    and how will they know if i privately sold more than 50 guns in a year?
    Or a hundred, or more.

    There is only one way for them to know any of this and that is through nationwide federal registration with periodic checks. THIS... is what the anti's have been praying for over the past 40+ years. It is the only way they will be able to track the movement of firearms in private sales. And of course, the criminal element will not be affected at all by any of this.

    Next stop... the push for confiscation.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Gentlemen, gentlemen and ladies!

    If you please, let's not cloud the issue with FACTS. Obummer's tactics are to ignore the truth.

    He is the big lie personified.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    as far as i am concerned, his "executive order" has not been seen by a house or a senate, nor had judicial review, IE it is NOT LAW, he can scribble all he wants, doesn't mean the people are going to follow it.

    i am still amazed he hasn't been impeached for his "unilateral" "law making" with executive actions, which is what a dictator does BTW.
    Even if Executive Actions were impeachable offenses, and I don't think they are, it would never happen. The politicians would vote across party lines and it would be another Bubba Clinton fiasco. Not to mention, the Republicans would be too worried that the Democrats would use it as political hay (Racist, out of touch, blah, blah, blah) in an election year. Impeachment is never going to happen ever again, no matter what the offense is.
    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson

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    COTUS lists the only impeachable offenses of constitutional officers. COTUS II, 4 "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High crimes and Misdemeanors."

    Note that impeachment is analogous to indictment, with conviction pending congressional action.

    The standard for civil/social impeachment is MUCH lower, as my Ignore List will attest.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-05-2016 at 09:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    COTUS lists the only impeachable offenses of constitutional officers. COTUS II, 4 "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High crimes and Misdemeanors."

    Note that impeachment is analogous to indictment, with conviction pending congressional action.

    The standard for civil/social impeachment is MUCH lower, as my Ignore List will attest.
    wouldn't this fall under treason?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Gentlemen, gentlemen and ladies!

    If you please, let's not cloud the issue with FACTS. Obummer's tactics are to ignore the truth.

    He is the big lie personified.
    Ignore the facts..... yeah just like most people do everyday.

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    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Learn to build your own guns. It is not hard and no great special tools are required.

    At least learn how.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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