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Thread: New ATF guidance on gun sales is legally meaningless (or else it would be unlawful)

  1. #1
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    New ATF guidance on gun sales is legally meaningless (or else it would be unlawful)

    "The new ATF guidance on when gun sellers must perform background checks does not alter federal law because it is just a "guidance." And if it did purport to alter federal law, it would be unlawful because the ATF did not follow applicable rulemaking procedures." Jonathan Adler @ Volokh Conspiracy

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-be-unlawful/
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "The new ATF guidance on when gun sellers must perform background checks does not alter federal law because it is just a "guidance." And if it did purport to alter federal law, it would be unlawful because the ATF did not follow applicable rulemaking procedures." Jonathan Adler @ Volokh Conspiracy

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-be-unlawful/
    I'll wager a fed will prosecute you for a guidance violation...if he is so inclined.

    Heightened vigilance and appropriate safeguards are now required.

    By the way, I will not be surprised if every FFL will be "guided" to hand over copies of their book of sales. And folks around here think a 4473 is not a gun registry...hmm...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

    These guys need to tryout their skills at the local comedy club. According to the ATF the laws say, the regulations say and the courts say, yet not one law was cited, not one regulation was cited or one court case was cited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    [ ... ] And folks around here think a 4473 is not a gun registry...hmm...
    Imagine the chore that reducing the manuscript bound-book to a database will be. Hypothetically, 100 million pages of barely legible manuscript.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Imagine the chore that reducing the manuscript bound-book to a database will be. Hypothetically, 100 million pages of barely legible manuscript.
    "E-bound-book." Cabelas, even my local Rural King uses a e-4473. Most Mom/Pop joints? Who knows.

    I'll wager that those 100 million pages are more easily accessible than you think...would like to believe.

    We have been registering retail sale guns for a very long time...care to rebut?...Prove me wrong?

    It's not like the ATF goons would ignore their own "regulations" and applicable laws...nope, they would not do any of those things...would they.

    <cough...cough>...fast/furious...<cough...cough>...nope, the ATF would never...ever...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Free market sales are a major safety valve against registration and confiscation.

    That is one of the major reasons they want so called universal back ground checks.

    Do the country a favor and never trade a gun to a FFL but sell it on the free market cash only.

    After several sales those firearms are untraceable who cares about the original 4473.

    I do believe that if the time comes 4473 records well be used in the confiscation of firearms.

    Again buy and sell on the free market.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 01-06-2016 at 10:29 AM.
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    All this crap is going to backfire like putting wet wood on a fire.

    Now people are learning that they can sell their guns no problemo.

    And they'll wake up about BR checks being a bunch of BS.

    And that their GP physician is an idiot who is not qualified on mental issues.

    And that our RKBA is not subject to regulation.

    And that they have a right to defend their property.

    And.....

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    All this crap is going to backfire like putting wet wood on a fire. ...
    Again, underestimating the loyal opposition. Even wet wood will burn on a well built fire...then again I have come to expect no less from you.

    Anyway, legal has nothing to do with this issue where the ATF/FBI/DHS is concerned. Prepare and be vigilant.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I'll wager a fed will prosecute you for a guidance violation...if he is so inclined.

    Heightened vigilance and appropriate safeguards are now required.

    By the way, I will not be surprised if every FFL will be "guided" to hand over copies of their book of sales. And folks around here think a 4473 is not a gun registry...hmm...
    clarification...been told the the 'book of sales' = FFL's A&D record

    ipse
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  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    clarification...been told the the 'book of sales' = FFL's A&D record

    ipse
    True. Yet...

    http://fflsolutions.com/software/vbound/

    Disclaimer: The above link is not a endorsement of the product described. The website came up after a google search.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Private Sale is legal in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Free market sales are a major safety valve against registration and confiscation.

    That is one of the major reasons they want so called universal back ground checks.

    Do the country a favor and never trade a gun to a FFL but sell it on the free market cash only.

    After several sales those firearms are untraceable who cares about the original 4473.

    I do believe that if the time comes 4473 records well be used in the confiscation of firearms.

    Again buy and sell on the free market.

    Obozo and that witch (replace the w with a b) Loretta Lynch can go pound sand. The only reason to want a background check on evey sale is to track every firearm for eventual confiscation. Hey Obozo and Lynch, stick it where the sun don't shine.

    I will continue to do what I've always done, buy and sell privately. And as I've always done, I will require a bill of sale, a driver's license number and if the seller has one their CWP number. If my gut tells me that the buyer is sketchy or suspicious, then I won't sell to them or buy from them.

    This clown Obozo is nothing more than a scheming liar. There is no epidemic of criminals buying guns via private sale and then committing crimes. That is nothing more than Bull Sh%t. The end goal is to create a civil war to declare marshal law and bring in foreign troops who would have no problem firing upon and killing Americans. The end goal is the destruction of America.
    Last edited by Bucko; 01-06-2016 at 02:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucko View Post
    ...The end goal is to create a civil war to declare marshal law and bring in foreign troops who would have no problem firing upon and killing Americans.
    It's "martial".

  13. #13
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    They probably want to make us all FFLs...

    https://youtu.be/wao21qSVxtg

    https://youtu.be/0aFneoPQuFs
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    They probably want to make us all FFLs...

    https://youtu.be/wao21qSVxtg

    https://youtu.be/0aFneoPQuFs
    If the Clinton admin hadn't declared war on FFL holders most likely all these Quote small dealers would have them.

    At one time there was almost 260000 FFL holders now we are down to around 65000.

    The anti's back then complained we have to many now the complain we don't have enough. One can never please them there goal is to get rid of firearms.

    a few numbers for you

    http://www.gunwatch.blogspot.com/201...out-obama.html
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 01-07-2016 at 07:37 AM.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I'll wager a fed will prosecute you for a guidance violation...if he is so inclined.

    Heightened vigilance and appropriate safeguards are now required.

    By the way, I will not be surprised if every FFL will be "guided" to hand over copies of their book of sales. And folks around here think a 4473 is not a gun registry...hmm...

    This!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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