Cruz is not elegilble for president

utbagpiper · Jan 28, 2016

since9 said:
The Constitutional requirement is that he be a "natural born Citizen." He was born in Canada, so he is most certainly not a "natural born Citizen."

This is begging the question, or simple emphatic assertion.

He was born in Canada, to a US Citizen mother and her husband, a Cuban citizen. His mother was, under all applicable laws, fully eligible to pass citizenship to her children by birth, regardless of where in the world or universe they were born. Cruz could have been born on the moon and he sill possessed US Citizenship from birth. Google jus sanguinis or by "right of blood". No need for him to ever be naturalized. He is natural born unless one of a very few and bizarre exceptions can be shown to exist.

It is really that simple.

Of course, nobody is obliged to vote for any candidate. So as "OC for Me" wrote, if you don't like Cruz's positions, don't vote for him. But let's not pretend there is any real question about his natural born status. He was never naturalized because he was a US citizen from birth.

Charles

davidmcbeth · Jan 29, 2016

utbagpiper said:
This is begging the question, or simple emphatic assertion.

He was born in Canada, to a US Citizen mother and her husband, a Cuban citizen. His mother was, under all applicable laws, fully eligible to pass citizenship to her children by birth, regardless of where in the world or universe they were born. Cruz could have been born on the moon and he sill possessed US Citizenship from birth. Google jus sanguinis or by "right of blood". No need for him to ever be naturalized. He is natural born unless one of a very few and bizarre exceptions can be shown to exist.

It is really that simple.

Of course, nobody is obliged to vote for any candidate. So as "OC for Me" wrote, if you don't like Cruz's positions, don't vote for him. But let's not pretend there is any real question about his natural born status. He was never naturalized because he was a US citizen from birth.

Charles

he's a cuban LOL...I think he recently just renounced his Canadian citizenship, right? There's another wrench...would he have been required to do that? Under his supporters I think that the answer is no. So we could have a Canadian president?

mikeyb · Feb 4, 2016

davidmcbeth said:
he's a cuban LOL...I think he recently just renounced his Canadian citizenship, right? There's another wrench...would he have been required to do that? Under his supporters I think that the answer is no. So we could have a Canadian president?

I don't think he'd be legally required to renounce his citizenship, but one can't serve two masters, as the saying goes. If you're going to pledge allegiance to 'Merica, you best be pledging to only one country.

sudden valley gunner · Feb 6, 2016

since9 said:
Every academic treatise I've read on this topic confuses "natural born Citizen" with "naturalized citizen," if not using the two interchangeably, then at the very least occasionally using one term when the other was more appropriate.

The Constitutional requirement is that he be a "natural born Citizen." He was born in Canada, so he is most certainly not a "natural born Citizen." Federal law does allow for a few exceptions, but Cruz meets NONE of these exceptions. Ergo, he is not Constitutionally qualified for the office.

Yes, folks, it really is that simple.

+1 Yet so many want to change what orginal meanings are. Maybe its part of that living breathing elasticity some claim are in the constitution.

St. George Tucker in his treatise on the u.S. Constitution was very clear it meant born within the U.S.

Citizen · Feb 6, 2016

sudden valley gunner said:
+1 Yet so many want to change what orginal meanings are. Maybe its part of that living breathing elasticity some claim are in the constitution.

St. George Tucker in his treatise on the u.S. Constitution was very clear it meant born within the U.S.

This is an interesting point. The constitution does not define natural born as being born to citizen parents. Here is what the constitution says:

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

First, let's eliminate that second and third clause. "...or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution,..." Clearly, the constitution is making room for people who were citizens at the time of adoption. Since nobody alive today can even remotely have been a citizen at the time of the adoption of the constitution, being merely a citizen, regardless of origin, can no longer have constitutional bearing.

So, on to being a natural born citizen. Natural born means natural born. And, that constitutional provision would be senior to citizenship as defined by congress. Congress, for example could write a law saying that if one of your parents was a citizen, you would be a citizen regardless of your birth location. Congress could pass a law making you a citizen even if born in China as long as at least one parent was an American citizen.

BUT! Congress could not supersede the constitution by an act of congress. Congress can perhaps define citizen any way it wants; but congress cannot change the constitution any way it wants--that takes an amendment. Meaning, congress cannot define or redefine natural born citizen.

It is the difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen.

Lets examine a little further.

Why bother to include the clause "...a citizen of the United States a the time of the adoption of this Constitution..." if mere citizenship was the object? The constitution's authors could have just said, "...must be a citizen..." and that would be the end of it. Why say natural born citizen, and then go on to make the presidency open to another group of citizens temporarily not restricted to being natural born? Obviously, once the clause "at the time of adoption" expired (by the death of all people who were already citizens at adoption) the constitution intends only natural born citizens to be eligible. So, natural born must mean something different, something more than being merely a citizen.

I don't know the facts about Cruz's birth. So, just going on the poster above who said he was born in Canada. If so, he's not eligible for the presidency. I think Utbagpiper is way off base. He's failing to recognize the difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen. A little bit of reading of the actual constitution and some very simple evaluation is all it takes to figure it out.

And, its backed up by St. George Tucker.

BigStack · Feb 7, 2016

All those babies born to c sections can never be president.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

davidmcbeth · Feb 7, 2016

OC for ME said:
To date the federal government has not indicated that Cruz is not eligible to seek the presidency. Until it does our only recourse is to not vote for him if his status is the true reason you do not support him. I suspect that Cruz is preferable to any democrat, except for beebobby and his fellow liberals. I also suspect that Cruz's status is nothing but a smokescreen for a citizen's true objections to Cruz and he potentially becoming president.

If ya don't like Cruz don't vote for him.

Being eligible for the position and being able to be elected are two different things, like I have noted earlier. He's on the ballot. He's electable even though he is not eligible. Remember Mayor Barry? A felon. He won office although he was not eligible.

sudden valley gunner · Feb 7, 2016

Citizen said:
This is an interesting point. The constitution does not define natural born as being born to citizen parents. Here is what the constitution says:

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

First, let's eliminate that second and third clause. "...or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution,..." Clearly, the constitution is making room for people who were citizens at the time of adoption. Since nobody alive today can even remotely have been a citizen at the time of the adoption of the constitution, being merely a citizen, regardless of origin, can no longer have constitutional bearing.

So, on to being a natural born citizen. Natural born means natural born. And, that constitutional provision would be senior to citizenship as defined by congress. Congress, for example could write a law saying that if one of your parents was a citizen, you would be a citizen regardless of your birth location. Congress could pass a law making you a citizen even if born in China as long as at least one parent was an American citizen.

BUT! Congress could not supersede the constitution by an act of congress. Congress can perhaps define citizen any way it wants; but congress cannot change the constitution any way it wants--that takes an amendment. Meaning, congress cannot define or redefine natural born citizen.

It is the difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen.

Lets examine a little further.

Why bother to include the clause "...a citizen of the United States a the time of the adoption of this Constitution..." if mere citizenship was the object? The constitution's authors could have just said, "...must be a citizen..." and that would be the end of it. Why say natural born citizen, and then go on to make the presidency open to another group of citizens temporarily not restricted to being natural born? Obviously, once the clause "at the time of adoption" expired (by the death of all people who were already citizens at adoption) the constitution intends only natural born citizens to be eligible. So, natural born must mean something different, something more than being merely a citizen.

I don't know the facts about Cruz's birth. So, just going on the poster above who said he was born in Canada. If so, he's not eligible for the presidency. I think Utbagpiper is way off base. He's failing to recognize the difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen. A little bit of reading of the actual constitution and some very simple evaluation is all it takes to figure it out.

And, its backed up by St. George Tucker.

Nice break down.

The plain writing gets so twisted to mean something else by modern "interpreters" that often we just forget to read it as is.

nonameisgood · Feb 7, 2016

Until 1932, you were not a natural born citizen unless you were born in the US.
And still, reading the current US government websites...

Which says that you are not a citizen at birth but have the ability to acquire citizenship without further qualification. Two different things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MAC702 · Feb 7, 2016

"May acquire citizenship at birth" is an interesting phrase. If one is born outside of the US, but to a US parent, is citizenship a process of paperwork, even if done at birth? Is it not automatic? Is seems like it is possible to be born of US parents, and yet never be a US citizen, even though you have the right to claim it.

The phrase used for a person born within the US is "citizen at birth" and the phrase used for a child born abroad of a US parent is "may acquire citizenship at birth."

Different. Not the same. One is natural born, the other is naturalized, albeit at birth.

Now, that analysis is just based on the picture provided in the previous post, which I personally have not vetted.

I've been trying to relocate a source I read that claimed Cruz' mother had gotten Canadian citizenship (necessitating an official renouncement of US citizenship) prior to Cruz' birth. Has anyone else seen anything like that which can be verified?

I will say again: this is irrelevant to Cruz being a good man or leader.

solus · Feb 7, 2016

MAC702 said:
"May acquire citizenship at birth" is an interesting phrase. If one is born outside of the US, but to a US parent, is citizenship a process of paperwork, even if done at birth? Is it not automatic? Is seems like it is possible to be born of US parents, and yet never be a US citizen, even though you have the right to claim it.

The phrase used for a person born within the US is "citizen at birth" and the phrase used for a child born abroad of a US parent is "may acquire citizenship at birth."

Different. Not the same. One is natural born, the other is naturalized, albeit at birth.

Now, that analysis is just based on the picture provided in the previous post, which I personally have not vetted.

I've been trying to relocate a source I read that claimed Cruz' mother had gotten Canadian citizenship (necessitating an official renouncement of US citizenship) prior to Cruz' birth. Has anyone else seen anything like that which can be verified?

I will say again: this is irrelevant to Cruz being a good man or leader.

Mac, et al., that reference has been relocated and filed in a location near you...i am sure that is in the hanger 51 compound somewhere...cuz if i were cruz, that's where i would have my agents hide it...

ipse

davidmcbeth · Feb 7, 2016

This guy looks like cruz a little bit ..

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Cuban_legislative_election,_2010_(President_McCain)

Hmmmm....I doubt its him ... but I wonder if he's eligible to run for public office in Cuba?

nonameisgood · Feb 7, 2016

https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartH-Chapter3.html
That's is the source of the screen grab I posted.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Feb 7, 2016

Many people confuse natural born, to native born. A person who is born on foreign soil cannot be native born, but the constitution sets the bar at natural born. Natural born/birth is exactly what the two words imply. There are some limitations though, such as giving up citizenship as Obama did when he filled out federal paperwork asking for aid as a foreign student.

Cruz was born a citizen making him natural born, though he is not native born.

nonameisgood · Feb 8, 2016

WalkingWolf said:
Many people confuse natural born, to native born. A person who is born on foreign soil cannot be native born, but the constitution sets the bar at natural born. Natural born/birth is exactly what the two words imply. There are some limitations though, such as giving up citizenship as Obama did when he filled out federal paperwork asking for aid as a foreign student.

Cruz was born a citizen making him natural born, though he is not native born.

I would contend that "natural born" should/is/was defined as having citizenship at birth, which was not the case for Cruz - there was an application that had to be made. And while that makes the citizenship automatic, it is not naturally-occurring.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Feb 8, 2016

nonameisgood said:
I would contend that "natural born" should/is/was defined as having citizenship at birth, which was not the case for Cruz - there was an application that had to be made. And while that makes the citizenship automatic, it is not naturally-occurring.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not sure of all the details of Cruz's birth, but if a person is born with cancer, then the doctors confirm they have cancer does not mean they didn't have it until confirmed. Such is the case for any child of a soldier overseas because they do not have a US birth certificate, that does mean they are not citizens at birth. It does mean that they are not native born citizens which does not disqualify them.

davidmcbeth · Feb 8, 2016

WalkingWolf said:
I am not sure of all the details of Cruz's birth, but if a person is born with cancer, then the doctors confirm they have cancer does not mean they didn't have it until confirmed. Such is the case for any child of a soldier overseas because they do not have a US birth certificate, that does mean they are not citizens at birth. It does mean that they are not native born citizens which does not disqualify them.

An odd response given that we discuss illegal actions by the government here all the time (signage, etc). You have not made this viewpoint (of needing to wait until the gov't makes a finding) known before.

Also, a soldier's kid born outside the USA is not a natural born citizen. Sucks if kid wants to be president, like all kids do at some point but that's life ... its fair to the point of being equally unfair.

WalkingWolf · Feb 8, 2016

davidmcbeth said:
An odd response given that we discuss illegal actions by the government here all the time (signage, etc). You have not made this viewpoint (of needing to wait until the gov't makes a finding) known before.

Also, a soldier's kid born outside the USA is not a natural born citizen. Sucks if kid wants to be president, like all kids do at some point but that's life ... its fair to the point of being equally unfair.

I would take this nonsense response more seriously if not for your reputation.

davidmcbeth · Feb 8, 2016

WalkingWolf said:
I would take this nonsense response more seriously if not for your reputation.

I don't know why you wish to personally attack me .. it shows a lack of a valid argument to the point that Cruz is not eligible for the presidency (which he clearly is not -- he even runs away from this discussion ~ like Cam Newton after the super bowl).

And I know know why you are attacking me...after all, I have noted that even if he is ineligible he can still be president.

Stay on target WW, I see signs of a white flag from you...or maybe an old dog can learn new tricks (I personally have never seen that happen).

Maybe some think that Cruz's run is so that the Canadians to take control of the US nuclear arsenal, I'm not one of those folks.

Grapeshot · Feb 8, 2016

WalkingWolf said:
I would take this nonsense response more seriously if not for your reputation.

davidmcbeth said:
I don't know why you wish to personally attack me .. snipped--

We see no personal attack. What is voiced is recognition of the results/history of prior posts. A distinct shadow is caste thereupon. It is a consequence of the manner in which you conduct yourself.

Cruz is not elegilble for president

Banned

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

New member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Banned

Legendary Warrior