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Thread: You judge, terrorism or mental illness?

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    You judge, terrorism or mental illness?

    http://news.yahoo.com/video/gunman-p...ons&soc_trk=ma

    You judge. But our government is down playing this as a non act of terrorism. Rather, it's a mental illness. Get use to it, mental illness is the new "talking point" our our current administration. Why is that a problem? Well everything from ADD, anxiety, depression etc. is categorized as mental illness.

    California just enacted a law that allows a "loved one" to request a gun seizure order if they suspect a gun owning family member is mentally ill. The police will then show up without warning and seize all guns until that person is diagosed, by the state I assume.

    Why is that a concern, well look at the broad definations of mental illness. If that person has any, or the state thinks they might, they will never see their guns again and will never be able to purchase one or have one again.

    Why should the rest of us be concerned (these are older numbers, it's fair to assume they are higher now):
    "An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older or about one in four adults suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people."

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    See the Soviet tactic of the Psychologization of Dissent as a pathology.

    There is no objective definition or diagnosis of mental disability.

    Vaclav Havel in his 1968 Livingin Truth, The Power of the Powerless on dissent;

    "You do not become a "dissident" just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society."
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-10-2016 at 01:35 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    New from CNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    There is no objective definition or diagnosis of mental disability.

    Vaclav Havel in his 1968 Livingin Truth, The Power of the Powerless on dissent;

    "You do not become a "dissident" just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society."
    CNN just discussed redefining terrorism. Basically saying these lonewolf terrorists are not traditional terrorists. They don't actually belong to a terrorist group, like on 9/11. Rather these new non-terrorists tend to suffer from undiagnosed anti-social and/or untreated mental disorders.

    As such, I guess what they do will no longer show up on terrorist activities and statistics?

    They also talked about suicide, that many gun murders are actually single person suicides, again related to undignoised and untreated mental disorders such as depression.

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    Anytime you go to a medical doctor, you must be slightly depressed about it, right? No guns for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/video/gunman-p...ons&soc_trk=ma

    You judge. But our government is down playing this as a non act of terrorism. Rather, it's a mental illness. Get use to it, mental illness is the new "talking point" our our current administration. Why is that a problem? Well everything from ADD, anxiety, depression etc. is categorized as mental illness.
    Terrorism, the unlawful act of using threats against that which others value in order to garner attention or further political means, may or may not be a manifestation of mental illness, depending on the circumstances.

    Case 1: When a lone nutcase attempts to slaughter a cop before claiming he did it in the name of Islam, then the guy truly has a screw lose, as it doesn't further anything other than his incarceration and the ire of the 90% of Americans who are honest, law-abiding people. It also causes them to increase their firearms purchases to the point where it becomes increasingly difficult to pull these kinds of stunts in the future.

    Case 2: "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them," even if that means backing that up by force, an act which the crown considered "unlawful," that is NOT terrorism. The point of the American Revolution is that although God instituted the powers and authorities on Earth, one such authority -- the crown -- had gone off the reservation, thereby violating a higher law (God's law i.e. "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God").

    The problem lies in distinguishing the difference between the "god" of acceptable, civil behavior -- even war as sanctioned by most nations -- and the "god" of some extremists groups, the ones that condone beheadings, child marriage, rape, bombing densely populated areas filled with innocent people, and many other acts1 that most of us would find heinous but which at least a third of their followers actively support.

    As for mental illness:

    "An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older or about one in four adults suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people."
    By definition, anything within one standard deviation (68%) from norm cannot be a "mental illness," as it is considered "normal." That leaves 32%, which is slightly more than the 26.2 percent figure in your quote.

    Is that reasonable? I say, "No."

    People are, by their very nature, highly differentiated creatures. Whether by design or natural selection, this trait of the human condition adds to our overall ability to survive. It ensures that in dramatically changed and harsh environments, at least some humans will survive.

    The problem with labeling something as a "mental illness" just because it's "different" is that aberrations in behavior are almost always not harmful to self or others. Aside from drug and alcohol abuse, most aberrations in human behavior are not harmful to either self or others at all. They may not be helpful, as when someone on a tight budget is obsessed with buying 100% organic food, but that's almost certainly not going to kill them and may actually be beneficial if they're eating less than the average American while getting highly nutricious, -cide free food in the process.

    Psychologists do not appear to be well equipped to determine the difference between "mental illness" and "propensity towards harm." At best, the underlying science is poor, subjective, and rife with false positive and false negative diagnoses. At worst, it's a crap shoot, a guessing game. I've had friends who were wrongly disarmed even though they never have been and never will be a threat to anyone (except violent criminals in accordance with the law). I've also personally known individuals who I thought were a bit off-kilter, who were judged by the system to be stable enough to possess firearms, yet who wound up harming themselves and others. I also know two people who were as sane as could be, but in with a terminal diagnosis of cancer, took their own lives rather than live through the incredible family financial drain and agony of being eaten alive by cancer.

    So, what's the solution?

    I propose taking the Second Amendment as is without any of the usual un-Constitutionally illegal infringements imposed by the courts and Congress: "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." If someone gets hold of a gun when they shouldn't have, it's likely their contribution to the gene pool will soon be over.

    If some of you can't stomach that draconian approach, then at the very least, no one should be deprived of arms except as confirmed by BOTH competent psychological authority, as confirmed by a second, non-associated psychological authority, and even then, only if confirmed by two or more family members (close friends, if family is unavailable).

    Finally, that percentage should be at about 5% (two standard deviations), and should include all criminals, whether incarcerated or on parole. The 26.2% figure is WAY too high.

    1The Qur'an states:
    2:191 - slay unbelievers
    3:28 - never befriend infidels (unbelievers)
    3:85 - Islam is the only acceptable religion
    5:33 - maim and crucify any infidel that criticizes Islam
    8:12 - terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an
    8:60 - must all weapons to terrorize individuals
    8:65 - unbelievers are stupid; fight them
    9:5 - kill the infidels whenever you have the opportunity
    9:30 - Jews and Christians are perverts - fight them
    9:123 - make war on infidels living in your neighborhood
    22:19 - punish unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water, melting their skins and bellies
    47:4 - do not seek peace with infidels; instead, behead them

    According to Islam, if you're not Muslim, then you are an unbeliever, an infidel, and deserve to be the recipient of these heinous atrocities.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    The three most important things in law are definition, definition and definition. Go through the entire United States Code and you discover many different definitions of the term "United States." "As used in this section" is how they define the use of a certain term. So, what is having a mental disability?

    18 USC 922(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

    (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
    Easier said than done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    snip...

    1The Qur'an states:
    2:191 - slay unbelievers
    3:28 - never befriend infidels (unbelievers)

    3:85 - Islam is the only acceptable religion
    5:33 - maim and crucify any infidel that criticizes Islam
    8:12 - terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an
    8:60 - must all weapons to terrorize individuals
    8:65 - unbelievers are stupid; fight them
    9:5 - kill the infidels whenever you have the opportunity
    9:30 - Jews and Christians are perverts - fight them
    9:123 - make war on infidels living in your neighborhood
    22:19 - punish unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water, melting their skins and bellies
    47:4 - do not seek peace with infidels; instead, behead them

    According to Islam, if you're not Muslim, then you are an unbeliever, an infidel, and deserve to be the recipient of these heinous atrocities.
    sorry, shall i grab any Christian Holy book and mis-quote, out of context passages and see what the results are...

    2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing.
    3:28 Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers.
    9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp

    a judicious reader notes the your self-serving Islamic rhetoric just with three passages you misquoted from The Quran's suras and verses, ayahs.

    btw...the bible states exactly the same nonsense then you are an unbeliever, an infidel, and deserve to be the recipient of these heinous atrocities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry, shall i grab any Christian Holy book and mis-quote, out of context passages and see what the results are...

    2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing.
    3:28 Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers.
    9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp

    a judicious reader notes the your self-serving Islamic rhetoric just with three passages you misquoted from The Quran's suras and verses, ayahs.

    btw...the bible states exactly the same nonsense then you are an unbeliever, an infidel, and deserve to be the recipient of these heinous atrocities.

    ipse
    Crap it just occurred to me, many gun owners are anxious and depressed because of all of this crap. Plus any liberal will tell you gun owners are mentally ill anyway, proven by the fact that we want to own something that can kill in the first place!

    See its really simple, if you want to buy a gun you are obviously suffering from some mental illness, therefore you can't have it And if you try to prove you are not nuts, then it just shows how nuts you really are!

    Just joking! I think?

    Oh damn, now i think i'm a conspiracy theorist too ?

    Well no worry, obviously I'm wrong because the ATF just showed up on a short bus with a FREE jacket and helmet for me! It's about time I get something free from the government!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    Crap it just occurred to me, many gun owners are anxious and depressed because of all of this crap. Plus any liberal will tell you gun owners are mentally ill anyway, proven by the fact that we want to own something that can kill in the first place!

    See its really simple, if you want to buy a gun you are obviously suffering from some mental illness, therefore you can't have it And if you try to prove you are not nuts, then it just shows how nuts you really are!

    Just joking! I think?

    Oh damn, now i think i'm a conspiracy theorist too ?

    Well no worry, obviously I'm wrong because the ATF just showed up on a short bus with a FREE jacket and helmet for me! It's about time I get something free from the government!
    Catch-22.
    I claim to be crazy, because I made that claim I cannot be crazy. To be considered crazy you have to summit the request to be tested and if you summit the test, then you cannot be crazy.

    It is standard government military logic.

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    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    CNN just discussed redefining terrorism. Basically saying these lonewolf terrorists are not traditional terrorists. They don't actually belong to a terrorist group, like on 9/11. Rather these new non-terrorists tend to suffer from undiagnosed anti-social and/or untreated mental disorders.

    As such, I guess what they do will no longer show up on terrorist activities and statistics?

    They also talked about suicide, that many gun murders are actually single person suicides, again related to undignoised and untreated mental disorders such as depression.
    Well, isn't that convenient. After years of trying to remove some of the stigma of mental illness (The most complex organ in the human body, and we are surprised that it sometimes doesn't work perfectly??), the lefties are now making the case that mental illness is a significant cause of terror attacks. Murderous rampages with political or religious overtones are not caused by the teachings of radical Islam, white supremacy, or even communism/anarchy. Nope. It is the person who had an eating disorder in college or was severely depressed after the death of a loved one who poses the great risk to public safety. Better yank these folks' RKBA for life, just to be safe.

    One wonders how long it will be before the desire to own a gun is taken as a sure sign of mental illness that should disqualify gun ownership.

    (On the flip side, most anyone who wants an elected office should probably be ineligible for that office.)

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Catch-22.
    I claim to be crazy, because I made that claim I cannot be crazy. To be considered crazy you have to summit the request to be tested and if you summit the test, then you cannot be crazy.

    It is standard government military logic.

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    Well very few people who are crazy will admit it ... are you crazy?

    Gotcha !

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well very few people who are crazy will admit it ... are you crazy?

    Gotcha !
    Your prior postings are a plethora of suspect mental health indicators.

    Still waitning for audio/video of all the things, and times, you told LE what they could do, or where they can go.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    btw...the bible states exactly the same nonsense then you are an unbeliever, an infidel, and deserve to be the recipient of these heinous atrocities.
    Horse hockey.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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