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Thread: Unintended consequence?

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    Unintended consequence?


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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    One of the comments, "Open carry is not a right."

    I am stick of idiots.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Everybody has got an opinion. And we all know what opinions are worth.

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    some Lone Star State open carriers worry that the push to expand their rights may have done more harm than good. from OP link

    Oh, thank you masta for recognizing a right ...

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    This is precisely the problem here. The gun toting community is eating itself. Some of the loudest voices against OC are those who claim the high ground as cc'ers. Charles Cotton is one of the worst offenders on this front.


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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    This is precisely the problem here. The gun toting community is eating itself. Some of the loudest voices against OC are those who claim the high ground as cc'ers. Charles Cotton is one of the worst offenders on this front.
    Many conceal carriers believe they are the chosen ones. A self-righteous group that believe privilege granted by the government outweigh inalienable rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Many conceal carriers believe they are the chosen ones. A self-righteous group that believe privilege granted by the government outweigh inalienable rights.
    Since our OC is by privilege card, too, you'd hope they'd just shut up.


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    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    This is exactly why I never joined in that forum. Literally half the posts are people moaning about OCT and CJ Grisham. It's really tiresome.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    Since our OC is by privilege card, too, you'd hope they'd just shut up.

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    unfortunately, they won't go quietly into the night. further they are right in their comments...the lid of pandora's box is open...and now all you nice folks have to play nice in the sandbox 'together'!!

    i was going to raise the subject of crossfeed but we have the same mentality with our NC gun owner's forum (populated mainly by folk in western NC) who believe OC's are the scum of the earth per se. when you bring up OC'g on their form it is brutal. there used to be cross feed when some members from NCGO were member of OCDO but for the most part no longer say hello out here.

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    Last edited by solus; 01-12-2016 at 08:49 AM.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Sec. 23. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
    The USSC has made clear that the power to regulate is not unlimited. The power to regulate the wearing of arms cannot be such that it limits all forms of carry, in effect, outlaw all carry. In other words, if the law regulates conceal carry then to be inline with "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms" open carry must be that right (not privileged) to stay inline with the constitution.

    So, what Texas court case says the legislators can regulate ALL forms of carry?

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    unfortunately, they won't go quietly into the night. further they are right in their comments...the lid of pandora's box is open...and now all you nice folks have to play nice in the sandbox 'together'!!

    i was going to raise the subject of crossfeed but we have the same mentality with our NC gun owner's forum (populated mainly by folk in western NC) who believe OC's are the scum of the earth per se. when you bring up OC'g on their form it is brutal. there used to be cross feed when some members from NCGO were member of OCDO but for the most part no longer say hello out here.

    ipse
    Same in Ohio. The CCers keep forgetting that it was the exercising of their open carry right that got them their conceal carry privilege.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The USSC has made clear that the power to regulate is not unlimited. The power to regulate the wearing of arms cannot be such that it limits all forms of carry, in effect, outlaw all carry. In other words, if the law regulates conceal carry then to be inline with "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms" open carry must be that right (not privileged) to stay inline with the constitution.

    So, what Texas court case says the legislators can regulate ALL forms of carry?
    Coming from a total prohibition on carry of handguns, we have achieved a milestone unreached in 140 years in the Lone Star State. If we had gone straight to constitutional, as a right, the antis and CCers wouldn't have a backstop (that is, to have the open carry repealed next session due to backlash.) I was one of the folks saying "let's take this baby step", so I am part of the problem. We should have gone for the jugular.


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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    Coming from a total prohibition on carry of handguns, we have achieved a milestone unreached in 140 years in the Lone Star State. If we had gone straight to constitutional, as a right, the antis and CCers wouldn't have a backstop (that is, to have the open carry repealed next session due to backlash.) I was one of the folks saying "let's take this baby step", so I am part of the problem. We should have gone for the jugular.


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    bottom line...have you gained a bloody thing with your baby step...IMHO, especially with the CC'ers p!ssed off...NOPE!!

    ya'll were tossed a well rehearsed & calculated treat to pacify a very small minority who thought they could change things after accepting that treat with conditions attached...

    ipse
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    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    Coming from a total prohibition on carry of handguns, we have achieved a milestone unreached in 140 years in the Lone Star State. If we had gone straight to constitutional, as a right, the antis and CCers wouldn't have a backstop (that is, to have the open carry repealed next session due to backlash.) I was one of the folks saying "let's take this baby step", so I am part of the problem. We should have gone for the jugular.
    I wanted the jugular but I'm at least OK with the baby step for now. It's more than we had two weeks ago and it's better than a slap in the face. Moving forward a bit is much better than staying in the same place or moving backwards. Like I said before, if OC continues to be a non-event, it will be easier to gain more ground in 2017.

    As for the CC privilege folks, I too am subscribed to the texas3006 notifications and almost all the ones popping up are 30.07 and not 30.06. I could be wrong but I think I've seen just two 30.06's since Jan 1st.

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    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    bottom line...have you gained a bloody thing with your baby step...IMHO, especially with the CC'ers p!ssed off...NOPE!!

    ya'll were tossed a well rehearsed & calculated treat to pacify a very small minority who thought they could change things after accepting that treat with conditions attached...

    ipse
    Not sure you can tar all carriers with the same brush as a small handful of vocal CC'ers upset they can no longer carry into their favorite <insert establishment name here>. I seem to recall reading the Oklahoma thread once OC passed there and seeing a few places posting no-carry signs which later came down after complaints. That small handful of CC'ers would be better spending their time complaining to the establishment(s) in question than blaming other gun owners. Also, if you look at the threads on there, it really is a small handful. They are probably pro-establishment Jeb Bush supporters that watch too much Faux News and, thus, believe all their precious rights are granted by the govt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qednick View Post
    ... believe all their precious rights are granted by the govt.
    Government sure does believe this. Until we can change "their" view point...continue to OC and work towards the next goal, unlicensed OC, and the repeal of 30.06/.07 laws.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qednick View Post
    I wanted the jugular but I'm at least OK with the baby step for now. It's more than we had two weeks ago and it's better than a slap in the face. Moving forward a bit is much better than staying in the same place or moving backwards. Like I said before, if OC continues to be a non-event, it will be easier to gain more ground in 2017.

    As for the CC privilege folks, I too am subscribed to the texas3006 notifications and almost all the ones popping up are 30.07 and not 30.06. I could be wrong but I think I've seen just two 30.06's since Jan 1st.
    I have yet to see a 30.07, or to see a new 30.06 that wasn't previously posted.

    I did attend an event at a restaurant posted as 51%. I had already checked the TABC site and knew it was F&B (less than 50%) so the sign was meaningless. I was concealing since it was a work event.



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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Government sure does believe this. Until we can change "their" view point...continue to OC and work towards the next goal, unlicensed OC, and the repeal of 30.06/.07 laws.
    People have been brainwashed into thinking that things flow FROM the government. It's sad that we can't snap out fingers and fix that.


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    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Government sure does believe this. Until we can change "their" view point...continue to OC and work towards the next goal, unlicensed OC, and the repeal of 30.06/.07 laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    People have been brainwashed into thinking that things flow FROM the government. It's sad that we can't snap out fingers and fix that.
    Absolutely! It saddens me to know that most people voting are voting purely for what they can get from government. The left right paradigm is completely false. Both are two sides of the same coin and it's always a case of voting for the lesser of two evils...usually the one who promises the most freebies. Government is supposed to protect your rights, not grant or take them away.

    On the plus side, I really do believe that more and more people are waking up now. With more and more "alternative media" coming on the scene along with Roku and similar devices, establishment brainwashing entities such as CNN, MSNBC, and Faux News will become less and less significant. I can't recall the last time I tuned in to such dribble.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    I have yet to see a 30.07, or to see a new 30.06 that wasn't previously posted.

    I did attend an event at a restaurant posted as 51%. I had already checked the TABC site and knew it was F&B (less than 50%) so the sign was meaningless. I was concealing since it was a work event.
    The only ones I've seen so far have been the ones at H.E.B.--though I now shop at WalMart--their loss. On the notifications I have gotten, 30.06 at one of the McDonalds (don't know which one) and Martha's Mexican Restaurant. I used to eat there, never again. And I'm surprised because just 3 shops up in the same strip, a pharmacist shot a robber. You'd think Martha's would have more sense.

    A few others but all 30.07's. One is Pappoulis Greek Restaurant. I was a regular--not any more. I'm sure there's somewhere else that will serve me a gyro while I OC.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qednick View Post
    This is exactly why I never joined in that forum. Literally half the posts are people moaning about OCT and CJ Grisham. It's really tiresome.
    Yes, and the forum itself is evidently HEAVILY moderated.

    Here is a post I made (it was the fourth post down) to the following thread: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtop...1545&start=135

    I partially quoted one of the moderators/site owners, Charles Cotton, as follows "...I truly wish that open-carry supporters would admit that they were wrong and that there is a problem. However, I won't hold my breath. If I cannot carry my self-defense handgun into a store because they put up 30.06 and 30.07 signs, then someone's ability to show their handgun to everyone will have cost me the ability to defend myself. To me, that's a net loss for almost 1 million LTCs."

    Then I replied:

    Because of your biases, why expect open-carry supporters to admit to something that isn't true? A mere few days into a new era in TX and you're complaining bitterly that "The sky is falling/has fallen!"?

    Unfortunately, in TX, just like FL, there is no RIGHT to carry under current law, yet the gaining of yet another privilege provokes heated commentary!

    It's all about EDUCATION. Just like when concealed carry laws passed elsewhere, a number of places reflexively posted "No Guns" signage. Over time, the lies of the anti-gunners became more and more clear to members of the public and the legislature. So it will be in Texas - if you and others can get past your doomsday outlook and instead choose to be a part of efforts to regain recognition of the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

    Not all open carriers are wonderful ambassadors, for gun owners or for other open carriers - but then again, not all concealed carriers fit that bill either. Exposure and conversation will inform and change the minds of people over time. Staying in your comfort zone and insisting others do the same will change nothing.


    FYI - an anti-gun "news" organization posted an article about this forum's machinations: http://www.thetrace.org/2016/01/open-ca ... chl-forum/

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qednick View Post
    Not sure you can tar all carriers with the same brush as a small handful of vocal CC'ers upset they can no longer carry into their favorite <insert establishment name here>. I seem to recall reading the Oklahoma thread once OC passed there and seeing a few places posting no-carry signs which later came down after complaints. That small handful of CC'ers would be better spending their time complaining to the establishment(s) in question than blaming other gun owners. Also, if you look at the threads on there, it really is a small handful. They are probably pro-establishment Jeb Bush supporters that watch too much Faux News and, thus, believe all their precious rights are granted by the govt.

    sure i can, the same mentality exists in our GRNC whose president on this very forum ranted and raved "HIS" organization quote: GRNC is promoting the image of North Carolina concealed handgun permit-holders -- certified sane, sober and law abiding unquote

    specific point, while the NC restaurant association was pushing hard for the legislature to mandate no firearms in eating establishments...GRNC was proudly pushing exceptionally HARD for an automatic weapon something or other provision...

    so be careful of the naive perception of "the small handful" distractors...especially remember if the news media reps go to find someone to interview on Texas firearm carry, they are going to find a CCer...you can be certain, like in NC, it will be an individual like the President of GRNC who in our case is not bashful to state his unabashed & strident disdain for those who OC.

    ipse

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Yes, and the forum itself is evidently HEAVILY moderated.

    Here is a post I made (it was the fourth post down) to the following thread: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtop...1545&start=135

    I partially quoted one of the moderators/site owners, Charles Cotton, as follows "...I truly wish that open-carry supporters would admit that they were wrong and that there is a problem. However, I won't hold my breath. If I cannot carry my self-defense handgun into a store because they put up 30.06 and 30.07 signs, then someone's ability to show their handgun to everyone will have cost me the ability to defend myself. To me, that's a net loss for almost 1 million LTCs."

    Then I replied:

    Because of your biases, why expect open-carry supporters to admit to something that isn't true? A mere few days into a new era in TX and you're complaining bitterly that "The sky is falling/has fallen!"?

    Unfortunately, in TX, just like FL, there is no RIGHT to carry under current law, yet the gaining of yet another privilege provokes heated commentary!

    It's all about EDUCATION. Just like when concealed carry laws passed elsewhere, a number of places reflexively posted "No Guns" signage. Over time, the lies of the anti-gunners became more and more clear to members of the public and the legislature. So it will be in Texas - if you and others can get past your doomsday outlook and instead choose to be a part of efforts to regain recognition of the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

    Not all open carriers are wonderful ambassadors, for gun owners or for other open carriers - but then again, not all concealed carriers fit that bill either. Exposure and conversation will inform and change the minds of people over time. Staying in your comfort zone and insisting others do the same will change nothing.


    FYI - an anti-gun "news" organization posted an article about this forum's machinations: http://www.thetrace.org/2016/01/open-ca ... chl-forum/
    nice job BB, now if we can coax john or mike to ping 'The Trace' with a counter news blimp the status quo will once again be balanced.

    hint grape hint john hint mike

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 01-12-2016 at 01:08 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Where is NRA leadership to spank Charles Cotton, so much for their claim of support for OC. It appears that they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They should not allow someone with such hatred for what they claim they support to stay on the board.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Yes, and the forum itself is evidently HEAVILY moderated.

    Here is a post I made (it was the fourth post down) to the following thread: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtop...1545&start=135

    I partially quoted one of the moderators/site owners, Charles Cotton, as follows "...I truly wish that open-carry supporters would admit that they were wrong and that there is a problem. However, I won't hold my breath. If I cannot carry my self-defense handgun into a store because they put up 30.06 and 30.07 signs, then someone's ability to show their handgun to everyone will have cost me the ability to defend myself. To me, that's a net loss for almost 1 million LTCs."

    Then I replied:

    Because of your biases, why expect open-carry supporters to admit to something that isn't true? A mere few days into a new era in TX and you're complaining bitterly that "The sky is falling/has fallen!"?

    Unfortunately, in TX, just like FL, there is no RIGHT to carry under current law, yet the gaining of yet another privilege provokes heated commentary!

    It's all about EDUCATION. Just like when concealed carry laws passed elsewhere, a number of places reflexively posted "No Guns" signage. Over time, the lies of the anti-gunners became more and more clear to members of the public and the legislature. So it will be in Texas - if you and others can get past your doomsday outlook and instead choose to be a part of efforts to regain recognition of the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

    Not all open carriers are wonderful ambassadors, for gun owners or for other open carriers - but then again, not all concealed carriers fit that bill either. Exposure and conversation will inform and change the minds of people over time. Staying in your comfort zone and insisting others do the same will change nothing.


    FYI - an anti-gun "news" organization posted an article about this forum's machinations: http://www.thetrace.org/2016/01/open-ca ... chl-forum/
    BB62 I appreciate you making that post! As a non-member I cannot post and I'm not suddenly going to join (or even hold my nose and join) what is obviously an elitist outfit just to try and set straight a few cry babies that got their knickers in a twist. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that not all OC'ers are fantastic ambassadors (which seems to be the main gripe over there), but the blatant and constant character assassination is beyond ridiculous and at 2nd grade level. Heck, there's even a thread about whether CJ Grisham holds a valid CHL.

    Do they not realize that there are anti-gun politicians and outfits going around actively handing these signs to any business that will take them. The exact same thing would've happened if OC hadn't passed but there was some kind of expansion of the ability to CC.

  25. #25
    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sure i can, the same mentality exists in our GRNC whose president on this very forum ranted and raved "HIS" organization quote: GRNC is promoting the image of North Carolina concealed handgun permit-holders -- certified sane, sober and law abiding unquote

    specific point, while the NC restaurant association was pushing hard for the legislature to mandate no firearms in eating establishments...GRNC was proudly pushing exceptionally HARD for an automatic weapon something or other provision...

    so be careful of the naive perception of "the small handful" distractors...especially remember if the news media reps go to find someone to interview on Texas firearm carry, they are going to find a CCer...you can be certain, like in NC, it will be an individual like the President of GRNC who in our case is not bashful to state his unabashed & strident disdain for those who OC.

    ipse

    ipse
    No you can't. Not unless you're going to tar me and the other TX-based members of this forum who hold CHL/LTC's. The difference between us and them is that we don't wear diapers and live in a closet.

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