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    Showing ID to police

    Hi, in a lot of the open carry videos on YouTube I see people refusing to show their ID to police when asked. Is there a reason for this? I know in a lot of states you don't have to, but why wouldn't you? All it seems to do is create hostility which is the last thing you want. If you have no criminal record and you're legally able to own and carry a gun, why not just let them run a background check?

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

    watch this ^^ and the second one (which you will want to watch I'm sure)


    You know that cops record information that you give them, right?

    So why allow them to document ANYTHING about you, including your whereabouts.

    Explain to me why it is any of their business. And how a cop can make you free-er.

    You must have $40,000 bucks just lying around to spend on a legal battle that could be avoided simply by saying: I do not consent to any encounter with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    Hi, in a lot of the open carry videos on YouTube I see people refusing to show their ID to police when asked. Is there a reason for this? I know in a lot of states you don't have to, but why wouldn't you? All it seems to do is create hostility which is the last thing you want. If you have no criminal record and you're legally able to own and carry a gun, why not just let them run a background check?
    Ahhhhh. <pleasure> One of my favorite subjects.

    First, we each have to make our own decisions. While I might shake my head at the person who cooperates, I must concede that no matter how strongly I might disagree, it is his right to cooperate.

    On to your questions. I cannot answer for others. I can only answer for myself.

    Thousands of people paid the price in blood, smoke, and treasure across centuries to wrest from government our rights. From Magna Carta to ratification of the Bill of Rights was 576 years. Over half a millennium. Literally over a million Americans have died since then defending them. I will not spit on their graves by waiving those rights. A cop's curiosity in the here-and-now pales in comparison to centuries-long price paid to win and protect those rights.

    A heavy price--very heavy, indeed--was paid to obtain our rights. I am absolutely not willing to pay that price twice, to pay it again. Especially for something government should already recognize without the people having to demand it. Rights were way, way too costly to obtain. They are precious, if no other reason than the human suffering and sacrifice it cost to obtain them. Very, very high price. Very, very high value.

    Thus, I am unwilling to back up even one inch. Somebody died or suffered badly to gain that one inch. Thus, I will exercise rights to the limit. There is just no way in hell I am willing for anybody to have to go through that again.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-13-2016 at 11:23 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    Hi, in a lot of the open carry videos on YouTube I see people refusing to show their ID to police when asked. Is there a reason for this? I know in a lot of states you don't have to, but why wouldn't you? All it seems to do is create hostility which is the last thing you want. If you have no criminal record and you're legally able to own and carry a gun, why not just let them run a background check?
    Another reason:

    If a cop is confronting me about an openly carried, properly holstered, defensive sidearm, implicit in his investigation is the premise that exercising an enumerated right is somehow suspicious.

    Oh, hell no! Being able to defend yourself against criminal attack is a fundamental human right. There is no possible way exercising a fundamental human right can be lowered to the same level as suspicion of criminality. No, no, NO!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    ... but why wouldn't you?
    I dunno, maybe the next time Officer Friendly stops you (when he has no suspicion of illegality, of course) why don't you ask him to provide documentation of his home address; where he sleep, and his wife and children are. I'm sure he'll willingly provide that to you, after all, what harm is there in it?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    You live in The People's Democratic Republic of Wisconsinstan and your cooperation is greatly appreciated by the state...go ahead and show the cop your papers.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    Hi, in a lot of the open carry videos on YouTube I see people refusing to show their ID to police when asked. Is there a reason for this? I know in a lot of states you don't have to, but why wouldn't you? All it seems to do is create hostility which is the last thing you want. If you have no criminal record and you're legally able to own and carry a gun, why not just let them run a background check?
    Would you give out all that information to any stranger who simply asks you for it?

    So, to answer your question, why not post your full name, birthdate, your DL number, and your address on this forum?

    There are cops and former cops on this site so, if you have nothing to hide then you will share that information with the public.

    For me it is not about hiding it is just none of a police officer's business who I am.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Volunteering information is akin to swallowing a treble hook, line and sinker. No good will come of it.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Volunteering information is akin to swallowing a treble hook, line and sinker. No good will come of it.
    That is a pointed response

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Volunteering information is akin to swallowing a treble hook, line and sinker. No good will come of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That is a pointed response
    Barbed, three times over.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    This is Alex Kaminski's introduction back in August.
    I'm actually now getting certified to be a welder, I couldn't last one semester of the liberal biased "knowledge" the professors tried to feed me. I never thought I would learn about how white males are oppressing minorities in a class that was supposed to be about wildlife and nature....

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    A group of police officers are standing outside a Walmart and stopping everyone going in to WalMart and asking for ID so they can check them for outstanding parking tickets/fines/warrants. Do you show your ID?
    You have a very good point. All I am saying is that if I was I was stopped by law enforcement I would rather be on my way as fast as I can and I wouldn't want to escalate the situation and create hostility. Do I think police have any right to stop a law abiding citizen? Hell no. But the last thing I want is some ill-informed cop to think I'm a threat and tackle me to the ground or shoot me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    ...All I am saying is that if I was I was stopped by law enforcement I would rather be on my way as fast as I can and I wouldn't want to escalate the situation and create hostility. Do I think police have any right to stop a law abiding citizen? Hell no. But the last thing I want is some ill-informed cop to think I'm a threat and tackle me to the ground or shoot me.
    When citizens acquiesce to these unlawful fishing expeditions, it emboldens the cops to keep doing them. You will be on your way much faster when the cops learn to stop doing it. You can help by politely refusing and continuing on your way. Indeed, they CAN'T detain you to ask these questions. Don't even stop walking as you politely say something to the effect of: "I don't have time right now, have a nice day."

    Or, if you are in the mood, and have the time, you can go with Citizen's reasons, and really give the cop an education while still refusing and then still leave without asking for his permission first.

    Your last sentence is a little interesting. If you honestly think this is a possibility for your part of the country, then perhaps you should ask some local experts, or maybe even your local LEA as to what level of training their officers have.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    ... All I am saying is that if I was I was stopped by law enforcement I would rather be on my way as fast as I can and I wouldn't want to escalate the situation and create hostility. Do I think police have any right to stop a law abiding citizen? Hell no. But the last thing I want is some ill-informed cop to think I'm a threat and tackle me to the ground or shoot me.
    Alex, if Officer Friendly stops you, it's not because he's interested in you doing 'a thing' legally. He's stopping you because he thinks you did something illegal. He's conducting an investigation to justify his detainment of you.
    If your answers don't provide a basis for probable cause and the officer is somehow sure you must be in violation of some law he thinks he remembers, or that one of his coworkers told him was illegal, all it means is that he's not asking the right questions. It means he thinks he needs more answers from you until he latches onto one that gives him either probable cause or a lead in establishing probable cause. You cannot make yourself more innocent by cooperation.


    Officer Friendly is just looking to do his job
    Officer Friendly is just looking for suspicious conduct
    Officer Friendly is just looking for probable cause to make an arrest
    Officer Friendly is just looking to put a criminal in jail
    Officer Friendly is looking at you
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-14-2016 at 01:23 PM.

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    In some (maybe all) asking for ID was a witness is also approved by the courts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In some (maybe all) asking for ID was a witness is also approved by the courts.
    The key is the difference between 'asking', and 'having the authority to demand'. And even then, no court to my knowledge has opined that someone need produce documentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    Hi, in a lot of the open carry videos on YouTube I see people refusing to show their ID to police when asked. Is there a reason for this? I know in a lot of states you don't have to, but why wouldn't you? All it seems to do is create hostility which is the last thing you want. If you have no criminal record and you're legally able to own and carry a gun, why not just let them run a background check?

    Well..... I would require he be in proper uniform and use the correct words first.....

    Uniform- Black leather trench coat with black fedora.
    Correct words (with proper German accent)- PAPERS!! You vill show your identity papers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    You have a very good point. All I am saying is that if I was I was stopped by law enforcement I would rather be on my way as fast as I can and I wouldn't want to escalate the situation and create hostility. Do I think police have any right to stop a law abiding citizen? Hell no. But the last thing I want is some ill-informed cop to think I'm a threat and tackle me to the ground or shoot me.
    They arent gonna shoot you. If a LEO comes to your door and asks if he or she can search your house, because you know you dont have anything to hide right? so just go ahead and let them in, that way they can be on their way in no time. This is the argument we get from people who dont OC, and frankly, dont care about their rights. They believe our rights come from the Government, but they dont. You see, we have this little piece of paper called the Constitution, the one LEO are sworn to uphold, so instead of giving in to their unconstitutional requests, why not hold them to their oath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Alex, if Officer Friendly stops you, it's not because he's interested in you doing 'a thing' legally. He's stopping you because he thinks you did something illegal. He's conducting an investigation to justify his detainment of you.
    If your answers don't provide a basis for probable cause and the officer is somehow sure you must be in violation of some law he thinks he remembers, or that one of his coworkers told him was illegal, all it means is that he's not asking the right questions. It means he thinks he needs more answers from you until he latches onto one that gives him either probable cause or a lead in establishing probable cause. You cannot make yourself more innocent by cooperation.


    Officer Friendly is just looking to do his job
    Officer Friendly is just looking for suspicious conduct
    Officer Friendly is just looking for probable cause to make an arrest
    Officer Friendly is just looking to put a criminal in jail
    Officer Friendly is looking at you
    Or, quite often, simply because he does not like what you are doing.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Or, quite often, simply because he does not like what you are doing.
    Having been arrested for 'felony trespassing' for doing nothing more than 'not being dressed in proper sports attire' while walking for exercise in a public park, in daytime, while it was open,...... I cannot disagree with you.

    The arrest was non prosequi'd but that didn't stop me from spending 13 hours in jail.




    It did pay for a brand spankin' new AR engraved with Officer Bell's badge number as the serial number, so I got that going for me.

    Would I go it again?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-14-2016 at 08:49 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Would you give out all that information to any stranger who simply asks you for it?

    So, to answer your question, why not post your full name, birthdate, your DL number, and your address on this forum?

    There are cops and former cops on this site so, if you have nothing to hide then you will share that information with the public.

    For me it is not about hiding it is just none of a police officer's business who I am.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    We also need your social security number. After all, you are that number. One of the first things you will learn in policeman school is a persons identity is his social security number.

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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkaminski888 View Post
    You have a very good point. All I am saying is that if I was I was stopped by law enforcement I would rather be on my way as fast as I can and I wouldn't want to escalate the situation and create hostility. Do I think police have any right to stop a law abiding citizen? Hell no. But the last thing I want is some ill-informed cop to think I'm a threat and tackle me to the ground or shoot me.
    The easy thing and the right thing are not usually the same. By "cooperating" you are building a potential case against yourself and making it that much harder for the rest of us.
    Let's say you get stopped. Witnesses won't pay attention.
    Now let's say you're stopped while open carrying. Everybody has noticed. By "cooperating" you're building the prosecutions case, making it harder for the rest of us by teaching the cop bad habits, creating a false impression that OC'ers are up to no good, and teaching everyone watching that the cop is in the right.
    Like Mama always said, "Don't borrow trouble."
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    We also need your social security number. After all, you are that number. One of the first things you will learn in policeman school is a persons identity is his social security number.
    Only socialists need a social security number.

    Citizens sure do not. I did have a cop get upset about that.

    Him : "Why do you not have a SSN attached to your driver license?"

    Me: "What law requires a citizen to have a SSN?"

    Him: "I am not here to debate laws with you...."


    Back story; cop out of his jurisdiction, me obeying the traffic laws at about 02:30, temp somewhere around 16deg F. I passed him noted his out of area car, crossed a valley. He pulled out behind me when I was about a third of the away across. He got up on me at the red light, I had my left turn indicator on. I turn left on thr green, he follows and turns his emergency lights on. I stop, he makes up a BS reason for a stop, (bent license plate, no it was not really bent), I turn on my audio recorder. Then he asked for my paper, I let him know I would be reaching past a pistol on my hip to get my wallet, he acts stupid, I tell him I am not drawing it, just have to reach past it. "Don't touch your gun." I kinda have to, to get into my pocket. Repeat a couple of times. I get my wallet out, my DRIVER LICENSE and hand it over.

    "Where are you going?"
    "That way." Pointing forward.
    "Where are you coming from?"
    "The other way"

    He keeps asking the questions, accused me of being cagey.

    Asks why I will not answer his questions.

    Told him that the last time I did that I got handcuffed and harrassed, I am not going to do that again.

    .......

    Will look for the audio of it if you want it.

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    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 01-14-2016 at 09:57 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Having been arrested for 'felony trespassing' for doing nothing more than 'not being dressed in proper sports attire' while walking for exercise in a public park, in daytime, while it was open,...... I cannot disagree with you.

    The arrest was non prosequi'd but that didn't stop me from spending 13 hours in jail.




    It did pay for a brand spankin' new AR engraved with Officer Bell's badge number as the serial number, so I got that going for me.

    Would I go it again?
    Been there and done that. When someone starts to tell me how I should act and they have not walked a mile in my boots (our boots) there opinion doesn't really count for much. Respect is earned. Anyone demanding respect does not deserve respect. My point is any officer that approaches me had better have a good reason. If not, in the end, he will wish he never stopped me in the first place.

    At some point you have to understand that you are the citizen and they are the servant. They took an oath. And they damn well better live up to that oath.

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