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Thread: KY Court Calls Foul On Cop Who Seized a Gun to Run the Serial Number

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    KY Court Calls Foul On Cop Who Seized a Gun to Run the Serial Number

    Defendant was stopped at a roadblock. After checking, the officer handed back his paperwork, but then the cop noticed defendant’s handgun on the console. The officer reached in and seized it. The court found the detention was not legally justified, and reversed his conviction for disorderly conduct. A person with a gun is not automatically “armed and dangerous” nor a felon in possession. Pulley v. Commonwealth

    Many thanks to John Hall at FourthAmendment.com for posting this on his blog.

    For new readers, I cannot recommend this blog enough. Hall is a criminal defense attorney who also wrote a text on Fourth Amendment law. The blog serves as an on-going, daily update to the text.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-19-2016 at 12:47 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    These cover the serial numbers of firearms that I have in my possession. They better have a warrant...

    http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B...pd_bia_nav_t_2
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    What's a serial number? I don't put them on mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    [ ... ]For new readers, I cannot recommend this blog enough. Hall is a criminal defense attorney who also wrote a text on Fourth Amendment law. The blog serves as an on-going, daily update to the text.
    +1 I read FourthAmendment.com and Volokh Conspiracy.com every morning before OCDO.

    Here's the link URL to John Wesley Hall's blog on this

    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=20415

    The truly ugly URL of the Opinion checks out.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-19-2016 at 06:51 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    These cover the serial numbers of firearms that I have in my possession. They better have a warrant...

    http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B...pd_bia_nav_t_2
    Not so very good reviews on those.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Towards the end of the opinion.
    The Sixth Circuit in Kennedy v. City of Villa Hills, Ky., 635 F.3d 210, 215-16 (6th Cir. 2011) (internal citation omitted), noted: [A]s the commentary to [KRS] 525.060 makes clear, Kentucky law does not criminalize arguments and noise that disturb only police officers because such conduct does not risk public alarm. . . . Indeed, because the First Amendment requires that police officers tolerate coarse criticism, the Constitution prohibits states from criminalizing conduct that disturbs solely police officers.

    http://162.114.92.72/COA/2013-CA-001...=90&req=Pulley
    Both of these cops need to be charged with criminal violations of federal and state laws. Talk about the prototypical contempt of cop situation. Those two cops are thugs of the highest order. How any citizen in the Commonwealth of KY would tolerate their tax dollars being expended to defend these two nitwits, let alone continue to employ these two is beyond me. They should be disbarred from any employment with any position in LE. The prosecutor should also be disbarred from the entire profession of law...permanently.

    A mere taxpayer backed check is not sufficient to "train" the KSP or those two "troopers." A concerted public humiliation campaign is in order to inform the citizens of KY that their KSP is infested with hooligans willing to use the full weight of their government to harass, intimidate, and incarcerate law abiding in order to afflict the citizens of KY with tyranny of the highest order.

    These two troopers are the epitome of anti-liberty and anti-citizen. They are a direct threat to the liberty and safety of the good citizens of KY.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not so very good reviews on those.
    Hmm, they do seem mixed. However, the concept is valid; buy some better ones! Mine are working, so far. I certainly have plenty to test...

    I have so many, in fact, that I'll happily mail some to any who want them. PM me an address and how many you can use. We'll crowd source the testing!
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Towards the end of the opinion.Both of these cops need to be charged with criminal violations of federal and state laws. Talk about the prototypical contempt of cop situation. Those two cops are thugs of the highest order. How any citizen in the Commonwealth of KY would tolerate their tax dollars being expended to defend these two nitwits, let alone continue to employ these two is beyond me. They should be disbarred from any employment with any position in LE. The prosecutor should also be disbarred from the entire profession of law...permanently.

    A mere taxpayer backed check is not sufficient to "train" the KSP or those two "troopers." A concerted public humiliation campaign is in order to inform the citizens of KY that their KSP is infested with hooligans willing to use the full weight of their government to harass, intimidate, and incarcerate law abiding in order to afflict the citizens of KY with tyranny of the highest order.

    These two troopers are the epitome of anti-liberty and anti-citizen. They are a direct threat to the liberty and safety of the good citizens of KY.
    +10000000000000000000000
    I could not agree more, thugs with badges have no place in law enforcement. They should have been criminally charged under title USC 18- 241 and 242 for rights violations under color of law, followed by a 42 section 1983 law suit.
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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    So basically the citizen was robbed and an illegal search conducted.

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    Hi Folks

    Please allow me to suggest a great book concerning case law regarding U.S.C. 42 section 1983 cases, many success story's.

    The book is titled "Section 1983 Litigation" by Michael G. Collins

    Collins gives insight into redressing federal constitutional violations by state, and local officials.

    A must read for all Constitutionalist.

    Best regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Defendant was stopped at a roadblock. After checking, the officer handed back his paperwork, but then the cop noticed defendant’s handgun on the console. The officer reached in and seized it. The court found the detention was not legally justified, and reversed his conviction for disorderly conduct. A person with a gun is not automatically “armed and dangerous” nor a felon in possession. Pulley v. Commonwealth

    Many thanks to John Hall at FourthAmendment.com for posting this on his blog.

    For new readers, I cannot recommend this blog enough. Hall is a criminal defense attorney who also wrote a text on Fourth Amendment law. The blog serves as an on-going, daily update to the text.

    Imagine reading a forum and finding out you won your case on appeal. Awesome.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    So basically the citizen was robbed and an illegal search conducted.

    Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk
    Correct ! "Here, give me your gun that you have to protect yourself from me!"

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    We are not persuaded by the Commonwealth’s argument that the purpose of the traffic safety stop was not concluded before Trp. Fields contacted dispatch to check Pulley’s license and vehicle registration and, thus, also entering the serial number into a crime database the firearm’s registration check among those other checks did not extend or change the nature of the traffic safety stop.
    The firearm’s registration check. What firearm’s registration check?????? Am I ever confused.....

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    This could be a 42 USC 1983 case. And I know all about 1983 suits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    Congratultions, CharleyCherokee. Thank you for sticking with it and fighting for the rights of all of us. We all owe you a great debt of gratitude. I'd like to know how you got in touch with Mr. Potter and the story of his involvement.
    Mr. Potter is a public defender.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    This could be a 42 USC 1983 case. And I know all about 1983 suits.
    I totally agree, the problem is finding an attorney that is willing to take on the local hero's especially a local attorney, I would suggest to the OP to seek counsel outside the state lines.

    Best regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Thank you for a clarification for your state.

    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread. It is very important on it own, but since the above is posted in the Ky. sub forum, by someone who is obviously unfamiliar with Ky. law, I feel compelled to let everyone know that the above is a very bad idea in this state....
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-19-2016 at 08:20 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Originally Posted by color of law
    This could be a 42 USC 1983 case. And I know all about 1983 suits.
    I totally agree, the problem is finding an attorney that is willing to take on the local hero's especially a local attorney, I would suggest to the OP to seek counsel outside the state lines.

    Best regards

    CCJ
    My point that I know all about 1983 suites is that My friend and attorney will go after any city of state.
    The problem is that usually the state itself is sovereign. A subdivision of a state (city - town) is not sovereign. The issue has to be evaluated carefully and statute of limitations also must be looked at.

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Yeah, but how did you meet him? Who put you in touch with him? How long has he been working on this? Did you have any problem getting his help? We want the whole store. Did he defend you in Circuit Court?
    My first court appointed public defender asked for his help in the original hearing. The first appeal I wasn't at all involved in and it was mostly an automatic thing they did. After the first appeal Mr. Mills moved on to better things and Mr. Potter took over. His briefs were pretty much the same as Mr. Mills with the exception of more flair and added cites. The entire process from start to finish has taken approximately 2 years.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread. It is very important on it own, but since the above is posted in the Ky. sub forum, by someone who is obviously unfamiliar with Ky. law, I feel compelled to let everyone know that the above is a very bad idea in this state. In fact, it would be a crime. Covering a serial number is illegal in Ky. Here is KRS 527.030:


    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=19958

    And the word "deface" is defined in KRS 527.010, here:


    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=19956


    This little prank could get you a year in jail.
    527.010 Definitions for chapter.
    The following definitions apply in this chapter unless the context otherwise requires:

    (2) "Deface" means to remove, deface, cover, alter, or destroy the manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark


    So, every S&W that ever left the factory with the Goncalo Alves target grips is illegal in KY??
    http://www.terapeak.com/worth/smith-.../360754394434/

    I ordered a S&W 642 from the factory with Crimson trace grips, they cover the SN, illegal in KY?? I have a S&W 686 I shot in the Bianchi Cup with Hogue rubber grips that are one piece and cover the bottom of the grip, illegal in KY?? I have a Remington 1100 12ga with a side saddle that covers the SN, illegal in KY?? Many after market accessories for firearms cover the SN, are they all illegal in KY??

    I know we are addressing KY state law; but here is an e-mail I got back from BATFE if anyone was thinking along those lines...

    FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
    9/19/12

    to me
    This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.

    Under Federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,
    obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported
    in interstate or foreign commerce.

    Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of Federal law.

    Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-20-2016 at 02:23 PM. Reason: rule #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread. It is very important on it own, but since the above is posted in the Ky. sub forum, by someone who is obviously unfamiliar with Ky. law, I feel compelled to let everyone know that the above is a very bad idea in this state. In fact, it would be a crime. Covering a serial number is illegal in Ky. Here is KRS 527.030:


    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=19958

    And the word "deface" is defined in KRS 527.010, here:


    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=19956


    This little prank could get you a year in jail.
    Then you better be careful to never put extended grips on a J-Frame, or heck don't even think of carrying concealed, or using a gun sock or bag. Don't put anything in a range bag or even your trunk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    SNIP 527.010 Definitions for chapter.
    The following definitions apply in this chapter unless the context otherwise requires:

    (2) "Deface" means to remove, deface, cover, alter, or destroy the manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark


    So, every S&W that ever left the factory with the Goncalo Alves target grips is illegal in KY??
    http://www.terapeak.com/worth/smith-.../360754394434/
    Oh, ho, ho, ho!

    The only possible motive for criminalizing covering a gun serial number is to defeat the 4th Amendment.

    Think about it. If a cop has probable cause to believe the gun is stolen or was used in a crime, he can apply for a telephonic warrant to remove the covering from the serial number. Heck, he can likely squeeze in under the exigent circumstances exception to the warrant clause--a person could just throw the gun in a river.

    There are too many avenues for any cop who legitimately has probable cause to suspect a gun. The only possible reason to criminalize covering the serial number is to defeat the 4th Amendment.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-20-2016 at 02:25 PM. Reason: rule #19
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    Don't highjack this thread. If you want to discuss this minutiae, start your own thread. This is what the Ky. law says. If you don't like it, stay out of Ky. and you will not be effected by it.
    Ummm. I started the thread. And, since when is discussing the minutiae a hijacking?

    If you really want to stick exactly and only precisely to the thread topic, then guns and self-defense are out of the question. The court opinion adds up to a rejection of the defendant's disorderly conduct conviction. The pro-gun comment of the court is dicta, not holding.

    Or, would you rather some newbie mistakenly think he can defeat a warrantless search of his serial number in KY by covering the serial number and end up in jail?
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-19-2016 at 11:14 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Don't highjack this thread. If you want to discuss this minutiae, start your own thread. This is what the Ky. law says. If you don't like it, stay out of Ky. and you will not be effected by it.
    Yeah... I kinda got the feeling that ANY state you choose will have the same prohibition against "covering, defacing, altering or destroying" a serial number. Many probably say the same thing about automobile VIN's, or any other item that bears such a number. I'm also willing to bet that mere tape isn't sufficient to trigger the law anymore than covering the serial number with paint or oil... or for that matter a box, or grips.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Illegal in Kentucky? It's covering the serial number.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-20-2016 at 01:07 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Didn't we cover this pretty thoroughly about five years ago?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-20-2016 at 01:02 AM.

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