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Thread: looking for self defense cite

  1. #1
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    looking for self defense cite

    Sorry to ask for help vice looking myself but I am supporting an exercise and do not have access (for most of the day) to a computer. A fellow participant just completed his VA CHP course, given at superior gun in Virginia Beach by "two state certified instructors". They stressed that your CHP only allows you to use your gun in defense of yourself or a family member. I told him there is nothing in the CHP regulations about "using" your firearm only on how/where it may be carried. The instructors contend that defending anyone other than your family could result in you being prosecuted (it is all up to the prosecutor). They gave an example of a LAC inadvertently interfering with an undercover take down. While I agree that could happen, I believe there is a legal avenue to defend an innocent and was looking for a cite to that statue. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Last edited by wrearick; 01-26-2016 at 12:48 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The instructors or fellow student made the claim - it is incumbent upon them to cite the relevant statute.

    Point of fact, there is no such statute restricting/limiting use of deadly force to only self or family members; therefore such remains legal in Virginia.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The instructors or fellow student made the claim - it is incumbent upon them to cite the relevant statute.

    Point of fact, there is no such statute restricting/limiting use of deadly force to only self or family members; therefore such remains legal in Virginia.
    Exactly. It's important to understand the laws involved rather than base it on an isolated case or simple rumor.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Totally agree, I was hoping there was something along the lines of castle doctrine or stand your ground wording that made it clear that defending an innocent was a justifiable form of self defense.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    i took the challenge but the lawyer's site i found won't let me 'cut' out the info ~ sorry.

    https://medvinlaw.com/virginia-self-...efense-lawyer/

    sixth thru eighth paragraph down might be of interest.

    finally: (http://www.piedmontnrainstructors.co...irearmsLaw.pdf)
    IV. DEFENSE OF OTHERS
    A Self defense applies to the defense of others.
    B. Force used to defend others must be reasonable under the circumstances.
    C. Deadly force cannot be used to defend others unless you reasonably fear that the person you are defending is in danger of being killed or suffering great bodily harm.
    D. Defense of others is viewed from the mind of the person acting to defend another. When defending another, you must reasonably believe that the person you are defending is a faultless victim of the assault you are defending against.


    E. Case law:
    Thus, under the majority view, in order to justifiably defend another, the defendant must reasonably believe that the person being defended was free from fault; whether the defended person was, in fact, free from fault is legally irrelevant to the defense in those jurisdictions. This view is based on the principle that one should not be convicted of a crime for attempting to protect one whom he or she perceives to be a faultless victim from a violent assault. Under this approach, the policy of the law is to encourage individuals to come to the aid of perceived victims of assault. We find this position to be well-grounded in principle and policy. Accordingly, we hold that the law pertaining to defense of others is that one may avail himself or herself of the defense only where he or she reasonably believes, based on the attendant circumstances, that the person defended is without fault in provoking the fray. Foster v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 380, 386, 412 S.E.2d 198, ___ (1991)

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 01-26-2016 at 03:21 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Its part of your natural right of defense. Its not negotiable.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    Sorry to ask for help vice looking myself but I am supporting an exercise and do not have access (for most of the day) to a computer. A fellow participant just completed his VA CHP course, given at superior gun in Virginia Beach by "two state certified instructors". They stressed that your CHP only allows you to use your gun in defense of yourself or a family member. I told him there is nothing in the CHP regulations about "using" your firearm only on how/where it may be carried. The instructors contend that defending anyone other than your family could result in you being prosecuted (it is all up to the prosecutor). They gave an example of a LAC inadvertently interfering with an undercover take down. While I agree that could happen, I believe there is a legal avenue to defend an innocent and was looking for a cite to that statue. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Hogwash. Idiots. Email (not PM) to me and I'll send you (or anyone else who cares to do so) a PDF containing my summary of the law of personal defense in Virginia as well as cites to authority. Not revised for a while, but believed to be current in effect. It started out as a response to a request for a bill that could be used to codify existing law, but when the legislators saw it, they balked because they figured it would never get through the legistature as it is. And there's some reason to think that, politics being what it is, there are judges won't enforce the law as it is, and no appellate court will correct their "errors". So it pays to be careful and conservative. Keep in mind my cardinal rule, the law of defense is the law of necessity; if you don't NEED to kill someone, don't draw the gun, don't look at it, don't think about it, don't talk about it, don't show it off, and don't gesture towards it. But if you NEED to kill someone, find cover (or at least concealment), pull the gun out and shoot to kill. There is, legally, no middle ground in Virginia. Keep in mind that your purpose is always not to "get the bad guy" but to save your life, the lives of your family members or innocent others, to stop serious felonies in progress, and to defend your home against invasion.

    Did you pay money for that course? I keep hearing what, to me, are horror stories about CHP courses, as if the only reason to take the course is to acquire the credentials needed to get the permit, as opposed to learning what you need to know to keep yourself safe and out of jail.

    Btw, CHP trainers should keep in mind that you don't have to be an attorney to be sued for legal malpractice; if you give out legal advice and someone acts on it to his detriment, then he's got a case against you for legal malpractice. That's why the clerks of court will generally refuse to help you with what you need to know to file stuff. You'd think cops would know better, but, oh, well. Btw, this is also why cops shouldn't be giving the "part three" lecture part of the NRA PPIH and PPOH courses, and people who get cops to do that part for them as instructors will be liable as well "respondeat superior" (you hired 'em, you're responsible for them). Being a law enforcement officer is really, seriously, no qualification for talking about the law of personal defense. The only way a cop would know a demurrer from a plea in bar is if he'd gone through a bad divorce (oh, wait a minute, most of them have, haven't they? - bad joke, I guess, forget I said it).
    Last edited by user; 01-27-2016 at 07:52 AM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Excusable, justified - key words/elements.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-27-2016 at 07:43 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    At some point trainers must be liable for their product.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    Sorry to ask for help vice looking myself but I am supporting an exercise and do not have access (for most of the day) to a computer. A fellow participant just completed his VA CHP course, given at superior gun in Virginia Beach by "two state certified instructors". They stressed that your CHP only allows you to use your gun in defense of yourself or a family member. I told him there is nothing in the CHP regulations about "using" your firearm only on how/where it may be carried. The instructors contend that defending anyone other than your family could result in you being prosecuted (it is all up to the prosecutor). They gave an example of a LAC inadvertently interfering with an undercover take down. While I agree that could happen, I believe there is a legal avenue to defend an innocent and was looking for a cite to that statue. Any help would be appreciated.
    The point you miss is that this person was actually charged with "contempt of cop," even if that was not the official charge listed on the warrant. Even if the situation absolutely justified the actions, the LAC dared to interrupt the LEO in his/her duties, therefore the LAC is guilty of "something."

    What you don't understand is that this can happen for ANY legal activity, all the way down to, and including, walking down the sidewalk at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Fortunately, such things are rare, but they do happen.

    TFred

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    Because this a 2nd hand story we really don't know what was said or in what context it was given in.

    Or what the student may or may not have heard.

    A lot of jumping to conclusions. By those who where not there.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Because this a 2nd hand story we really don't know what was said or in what context it was given in.

    Or what the student may or may not have heard.

    A lot of jumping to conclusions. By those who where not there.
    Knee jerk reactions? Not here. Never.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Thank you very much,

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Were these "state certified instructors" certified by DCJS?
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Were these "state certified instructors" certified by DCJS?
    Sorry, all I have is the statement of the guy who attended the class and the words he used were "State Certified Instructors". I asked for more specifics and that is all he remembers so I will have to stick with the facts (as presented to me) and refrain from speculating on answers I have no basis for(although I may have bias for )
    .

  16. #16
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    I shared with my friend the fine answer USER provided and printouts from the links SOLUS provided and he is convinced. He "opined" that the instructors were perhaps simplifying things to help keep the attendees out of trouble, which I told him was fine as long as they presented it as their "advice" or "opinion" but to state those words as fact or law was WRONG!. I stressed how important it is to be able to reference the actual law as written vice statements on the law by those who "Should" know the law. I related several stories of misstatements or outright lies made to me by policemen and my surprise at discovering how little they really know about the laws, at least RKBA laws.

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    Anecdotally, the local cop trainer teaches only the prohibitions of our gun carry law, but not the prerequisites for going armed in a tavern for instance. He charges $100 per head and is not legally liable for errors made in good faith.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    To send me an email, click on the "user" name to the left.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  19. #19
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    sidebar: NC CHP instructors are liable for any mishaps their students have but to date i have not heard of anybody being charged.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sidebar: NC CHP instructors are liable for any mishaps their students have but to date i have not heard of anybody being charged.

    ipse
    Talking about criminal, civil, or administratively imposed "penalties"?

    There are some instructors who give instructions on specific weapon systems (like AR classed) and others giving general tactical classes that have value.

    But the silly safety classes required to get the permission slips are useless classes; only a total retard would need such instruction and if they did not get such insight into the safe handling of his/her gun (don't point it at your head) they would clearly be eliminated from the gene pool in short order. And they cannot give out legal advice ~ they are not lawyers.

    better yet - read your gun's manual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Talking about criminal, civil, or administratively imposed "penalties"?

    There are some instructors who give instructions on specific weapon systems (like AR classed) and others giving general tactical classes that have value.

    But the silly safety classes required to get the permission slips are useless classes; only a total retard would need such instruction and if they did not get such insight into the safe handling of his/her gun (don't point it at your head) they would clearly be eliminated from the gene pool in short order. And they cannot give out legal advice ~ they are not lawyers.

    better yet - read your gun's manual.
    ++1
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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