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Thread: MI: New legislation would allow concealed carry without a permit

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    MI: New legislation would allow concealed carry without a permit

    Michigan: New legislation would allow concealed carry without a permit

    The sponsors of House Bills 5301-5304 say that the current requirements is an inconvenience to gun owns and that it cost money. The penalties for unlawful possession will stay the same and would apply to those not now legally allowed to carry concealed.



    New legislation would allow concealed carry without a permit
    http://wwmt.com/news/local/new-legis...thout-a-permit


    "LANSING, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Legislation just introduced in Michigan would allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons without a government issued permit. The bills were introduced Tuesday by four House Republicans."


    Additional information

    http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...hout_a_li.html

    "Michigan Reps. Tom Barrett, R-Potterville; Lee Chatfield, R-Levering; Triston Cole, R-Mancelona; and Jim Runestad, R-White Lake, introduced House Bills 5301-5304 on Tuesday, Feb. 2. "
    .
    I am not a lawyer, I study the history of gun control laws.

  2. #2
    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on this one. Too many hand wringing Chicken Little types in Lansing and Detroit/Ann Arbor for this to pass.

    HB 5301

    HB 5302

    HB 5303

    HB 5304

    And tbh, I don't see anything in these bills that actually repeals the CPL requirement in totality. Granted, I'm not even close to an expert in legalese, but this doesn't seem to work the way people think it will. The underlined section is the proposed removal.

    From 5301

    Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon OTHER THAN A PISTOL, except a
    hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling
    house, IN HIS OR HER place of business, or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person WHO IS PROHIBITED BY STATE OR FEDERAL LAW FROM POSSESSING A FIREARM shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a
    vehicle operated or occupied by the person. , except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed,
    shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    5303 has the oddest language of all. Again, underlined part is the proposed removal.

    From 5303

    Sec. 43510. (1) Subject to subsection (2), except as provided in section 43513, and except for an individual hunting on a game bird hunting preserve licensed under part 417, an individual shall

    not carry or transport a firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow, or a trap while in any area frequented by wild animals unless that individual has in his or her possession a license as

    required under this part.

    (2) This act or a rule promulgated or order issued by the department or the commission under this act shall not be construed to prohibit an individual from transporting a pistol or carrying a

    loaded pistol, whether concealed or not. , if either of the following applies:

    (a) The individual has in his or her possession a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435.

    (b) The individual is authorized under the circumstances to carry a concealed pistol without obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, as

    provided for under any of the following:

    (i) Section 12a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.432a.

    (ii) Section 227, 227a, 231, or 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.227, 750.227a, 750.231, and 750.231a.
    The only thing I can come up with is if the law relies on the phrase "any area frequented by wild animals" to mean the totality of nature, both urban and rural, as the operative area to require a license in the first place. 5302 deals only with some procedural identifiers and law reference numbers, while 5304 only removes "750.227a Unlawful possession of pistol" as a class F felony.
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    I Prefer we keep the permitting requirement.

    Because the Michigan CPL is recognized in 39 states, more than any other permit. No permit required would mean you couldn't even cross into Ohio without becoming an instant Felon. As for suggestions about continuing Permits for those wishing one, next budget crunch and that would get de-funded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter123 View Post
    Because the Michigan CPL is recognized in 39 states, more than any other permit. No permit required would mean you couldn't even cross into Ohio without becoming an instant Felon. As for suggestions about continuing Permits for those wishing one, next budget crunch and that would get de-funded.
    The way i understand it (I could very well be wrong) is that a CPL would be optional. So for those that wish the reciprocity the Michigan CPL provides, it would still be available to them. Otherwise, no permission slip to carry would be required to carry for residents.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    The way i understand it (I could very well be wrong) is that a CPL would be optional. So for those that wish the reciprocity the Michigan CPL provides, it would still be available to them. Otherwise, no permission slip to carry would be required to carry for residents.
    Exactly how it should work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter123 View Post
    As for suggestions about continuing Permits for those wishing one, next budget crunch and that would get de-funded.
    Isn't the permit system self funding via fees for permits?

    I would think many States actually turn a profit on their permits.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Especially here, where it normally costs about $100 for them to process the application.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    In any event, it will never get past Gov. Snyder. Even if it passes the legislature, he will veto it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    In any event, it will never get past Gov. Snyder. Even if it passes the legislature, he will veto it.
    I believe that has been the common thinking in Maine and WV also and several other states where it was tired failed then finely passed.

    If one doesn't try one never succeeds.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 03-06-2016 at 01:08 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I believe that has been the common thinking in Maine and WV also and several other states where it was tired failed then finely past.

    If one doesn't try one never succeeds.
    Yep, it is past that it passed in those states.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Yep, it is past that it passed in those states.
    Thanks for the help
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    I am not sure it matters. In the event that this passes AND gets signed, I will bet that there will be at least 50 unlawful arrests made within the first calendar year because the public servants are either 1) Incompetent, 2) Don't think you should be able to carry without a permit, 3) Have tunnel vision (only seeing the part that says you need a permit, which I have witnessed), 4) Are given bad orders from the higher paid public servants, and 5) Straight up don't care.

    A lot of the open carry arrests I have seen seem to fall under category 5. They know its legal, but for one reason or another, they decide to make up the law on the spot and arrest anyway. And until we can defend ourselves against such violations of our personal space without fear of repercussion, it will never change.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Thats where HB 4795 comes in. If THAT gets signed, the LEO's will be a little more careful.

    Sec. 4c.2
    IF THE COURT DETERMINES AN ELECTED OR APPOINTED OFFICIAL OF THE LOCAL UNIT OF GOVERNMENT KNOWINGLY AND WILLFULLY ENACTED OR ENFORCED AN ORDINANCE OR REGULATION IN IOLATION OF THIS ACT, THEN THE COURT SHALL ASSESS A CIVIL FINE OF NOT MORE THAN $5,000.00 AGAINST THAT ELECTED OR APPOINTED OFFICIAL, WHICH IS IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER PENALTY PROVIDED BY LAW.

    Sec. 4c.3
    EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE REQUIRED BY LAW, PUBLIC FUNDS SHALL NOT BE USED TO DEFEND OR REIMBURSE AN ELECTED OR APPOINTED OFFICIAL OF A LOCAL UNIT OF GOVERNMENT WHO IS DETERMINED TO HAVE KNOWINGLY AND WILLFULLY ENACTED OR ENFORCED AN ORDINANCE OR REGULATION IN VIOLATION OF THIS ACT.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Thats where HB 4795 comes in. If THAT gets signed, the LEO's will be a little more careful.
    Now that dog law has some teeth! Best to not be bitten.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I believe that has been the common thinking in Maine and WV also and several other states where it was tired failed then finely passed.

    If one doesn't try one never succeeds.
    While I'm sure it will pass sooner or later, I just don't think it will get past the current governor. Snyder seems to have a lock on the legislature. They may pass a law he doesn't like, but if he vetoes it, they won't over ride it. At least they haven't so far, and I think we have little reason to think this will be any different.

    Snyder is term limited, so it really doesn't matter what he does, he's not risking losing the next election, since he can't run again. I think if/when constitutional carry does finally pass, it will most likely be AFTER Snyder is no longer in office.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    --snipped--

    Of course, I could be wrong.
    More likely you would just be mistaken.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    More likely you would just be mistaken.
    I won't say it's impossible, but as long as Snyder is in office, I'm not holding my breath until it passes.
    Big Gay Al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    I won't say it's impossible, but as long as Snyder is in office, I'm not holding my breath until it passes.
    I have to agree with Al on this one. "Tricky Ricky" is definitely not a friend to the people in MI that value their rights. He (Snyder) is yet another recipient of Bloomberg $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, and thus beholding to him.

    http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/in...in_michae.html
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    More likely you would just be mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    I won't say it's impossible, but as long as Snyder is in office, I'm not holding my breath until it passes.
    I was jus' jerking your rope with the comparison of "wrong" and "mistaken."
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I don't think permit less carry has ever passed on the first try in any state it normally takes several tries.

    One needs to start some where, it also gives a good opportunity to flush out those that maybe friendly and those that say are but really are not.

    We have seen it before from other gun organizations we are afraid we are going to loose so we well not even try.

    It is better to attack then play defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I don't think permit less carry has ever passed on the first try in any state it normally takes several tries.

    One needs to start some where, it also gives a good opportunity to flush out those that maybe friendly and those that say are but really are not.
    Absolutely! So far better than half of the states either have permitless carry or have had permitless carry introduced into their respective legislatures. Michigan will have constitutional carry within several years, to be sure. West Virginia just got it and several other states may have it before this year is out. The ball is rolling and with each additional state momentum is gained.
    Last edited by OC4me; 03-11-2016 at 07:25 PM.

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    Any indication if there will be an attempt to move the bill, or is a committee chair holding it up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I believe that has been the common thinking in Maine and WV also and several other states where it was tired failed then finely passed.

    If one doesn't try one never succeeds.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Michigan will have constitutional carry within several years, to be sure. West Virginia just got it and several other states may have it before this year is out.
    We can't always have Bloombergites for governors.
    After 16 years of GranholmSnyder we're due for a change in 2018.

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