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  1. #1
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    ready. aim. truth.

    http://www.wfaa.com/news/ready-aim-t...art-1/27672243

    "I saw that he was armed, hes my first target"

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    So, the open carry just happened to be seated in a position in the conference room where the actor playing the assailant highly trained, body-armor wearing SWAT officer/instructor "noticed" him first.

    Suuuuure. My money says the "bad-guy" knew who the OCer was. And, even if he didn't, the advanced urban combat training (SWAT) put him high above your average nut-case with a gun.

    And, all that aside, we hashed this to death years ago: OCers often OC as social activism, encouraging others to carry by personal, visible demonstration. Those who do made a calculation and decided to take that risk. Too bad the story's author's chose to scare others with a tilted scenario rather than let them decide for themselves by explaining both the pros and cons of OC.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    The criminals informed the police that they had changed their mind upon discovering armed customers and were waiting for Matt and J.P. to leave
    http://www.examiner.com/article/open...bbery-kennesaw

    And that's from an actual news event, not a scripted mock-up done by an anti-carry yellow journalism editorialist.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-07-2016 at 03:01 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    My take is training is training no matter what form it takes. I am not sure how effective these really are because there is the element of knowledge of what is about to happen. Attacks never happen when you expect them, so how "real world" can these be, plus, you know its make believe an no one is really in danger. I have been through various types of training, from flying to industrial safety to CPR and I do think its good for knowing what to expect.......from yourself and your response to a situation......to a limited degree. Panic kills. If you know you can count on a reasoned response from yourself and know you won't panic in an emergency situation I think goes farther than any preplanned put you in a room and at some point somebody is going to come in and play bad guy thing. Something is better than nothing I guess.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Firstly, I would love to know just how many bad guys get their hands on and use body armor. And secondly, anyone that's been shot while wearing body armor knows that it does exactly jack to minimize the KINETIC energy. They may not penetrate, but with most real rounds, a person WILL be staggered and disrupted. This test was rigged for failure from the start.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    We've been down this road before...many times.

    Urban myth, a lie repeated often enough..., distorts reality, everybody is an expert, etc., etc., etc.

    Training and planning ahead are good. When the SHTF don't rely on it being in accordance with what you expect; especially if the training is slanted or loaded too much to one side.


    Still looking for the normal, everyday OCer preemptively taken out.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-07-2016 at 03:29 PM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    http://www.examiner.com/article/open...bbery-kennesaw

    And that's from an actual news event, not a scripted mock-up done by an anti-carry yellow journalism editorialist.
    Yep, the whole "I spotted the openly carried gun right away, yeah, BS! The guy's hot a helmet on his head and camera strapped to his chest.

    They've got frickin helmets and goggles on! Using unfamiliar pistols. Give them some time to become accustomed to the gear and the location for a day or two, the pistol a few weeks before. Now set it up again.

    This time put helmets and cameras on everyone. Make it a double blind test. Shooter does not know defender or where he's going to be. Use a shooter with something less than 22 years SWAT/instructor experience. Heck get volunteers for both 'sides'

    Use simmunitions not airsoft.


    It's BS just like the ABC one several years ago.

    But even this all said and done, even if the shooter was able to kill all of them every time, that still does not support the banning or regulation of firearms possession.


    People always looked at me a little strange when I would choose the seat in the conference room as far for the door as possible and position myself with my right side away fro the door.

    Before I got the corner office (in a secure building - card access, on a secure floor - limited card access, in a secure section - again restricted to only those working in that section and some of our superiors), I got to select my own 'tactically' superior cubicle too: Right next to a nice little cubbie with a couple filing cabinets stuffed full of ream after ream of paper for the big ass copy machine that sat right next to it, plus a straight shot to the stairwell door (right next to the bathroom) and close to the hallway that led to the other side of the building.

    And of course I ignore the 'no guns' rules.

    I'm not paranoid, just prepared.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-07-2016 at 03:53 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Article to me shows the civilians did a very good job - 3/4 killed attacker in most scenarios.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    http://www.examiner.com/article/open...bbery-kennesaw

    And that's from an actual news event, not a scripted mock-up done by an anti-carry yellow journalism editorialist.
    Any questions? ^^^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Yep, the whole "I spotted the openly carried gun right away, yeah, BS! The guy's hot a helmet on his head and camera strapped to his chest.

    They've got frickin helmets and goggles on! Using unfamiliar pistols. Give them some time to become accustomed to the gear and the location for a day or two, the pistol a few weeks before. Now set it up again.

    This time put helmets and cameras on everyone. Make it a double blind test. Shooter does not know defender or where he's going to be. Use a shooter with something less than 22 years SWAT/instructor experience. Heck get volunteers for both 'sides'

    Use simmunitions not airsoft.


    It's BS just like the ABC one several years ago.

    But even this all said and done, even if the shooter was able to kill all of them every time, that still does not support the banning or regulation of firearms possession.
    Agree, total BS!!! How many petty thieves are gonna be "looking" for someone OCing when they go into a place? And what are the odds of the attacker walking into a place and the OC person is lined up perfectly in the line of sight for the attacker to notice? and if he did notice, does that attacker want to be charged with murder or maybe go to a softer target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wethepeople View Post
    Any questions? ^^^^^^
    yeah, explain this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Yep, the whole "I spotted the openly carried gun right away, yeah, BS! The guy's hot a helmet on his head and camera strapped to his chest.

    They've got frickin helmets and goggles on! Using unfamiliar pistols. Give them some time to become accustomed to the gear and the location for a day or two, the pistol a few weeks before. Now set it up again.

    This time put helmets and cameras on everyone. Make it a double blind test. Shooter does not know defender or where he's going to be. Use a shooter with something less than 22 years SWAT/instructor experience. Heck get volunteers for both 'sides'

    Use simmunitions not airsoft.


    It's BS just like the ABC one several years ago.

    But even this all said and done, even if the shooter was able to kill all of them every time, that still does not support the banning or regulation of firearms possession.
    but even the CCers had the mask and no one else. OC deters crime, as im told here, so why didnt he just leave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    We've been down this road before...many times.

    Urban myth, a lie repeated often enough..., distorts reality, everybody is an expert, etc., etc., etc.

    Training and planning ahead are good. When the SHTF don't rely on it being in accordance with what you expect; especially if the training is slanted or loaded too much to one side.


    Still looking for the normal, everyday OCer preemptively taken out.
    you have been down this road here on the threads. so just because its "discussed" here, where everyone agrees with you, doesnt make it fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    So, the open carry just happened to be seated in a position in the conference room where the actor playing the assailant highly trained, body-armor wearing SWAT officer/instructor "noticed" him first.

    Suuuuure. My money says the "bad-guy" knew who the OCer was. And, even if he didn't, the advanced urban combat training (SWAT) put him high above your average nut-case with a gun.

    And, all that aside, we hashed this to death years ago: OCers often OC as social activism, encouraging others to carry by personal, visible demonstration. Those who do made a calculation and decided to take that risk. Too bad the story's author's chose to scare others with a tilted scenario rather than let them decide for themselves by explaining both the pros and cons of OC.
    the same swat guy went up against everyone, not just the OCer. so no one was treated differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Firstly, I would love to know just how many bad guys get their hands on and use body armor. And secondly, anyone that's been shot while wearing body armor knows that it does exactly jack to minimize the KINETIC energy. They may not penetrate, but with most real rounds, a person WILL be staggered and disrupted. This test was rigged for failure from the start.
    ever wore body armor? ever been shot? i have worn it and have been shot, you dont always notice that much kenitic energy when your hear is pumping. and a lot of bad guys have worn body armor. BOA shoot out in LA and the movie theature shooter in colorado recently, just to name 2 right off the top of my head. google might tell you more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    but even the CCers had the mask and no one else. OC deters crime, as im told here, so why didnt he just leave?
    Trying to be funny or cute? It was a staged event, the hired cop's job was to 'kill' the participants, he knew exactly who was armed and where they were, not even close to real life.

    Deterring crime is referring to the 99.44% of crime that happens. "Street' crime: Random(ish) level robberies, holdups, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    the same swat guy went up against everyone, not just the OCer. so no one was treated differently.
    Do you have any information as to the role those other actors were told to play?

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    Nothing to explain yet. Details needed are severally lacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    you have been down this road here on the threads. so just because its "discussed" here, where everyone agrees with you, doesnt make it fact.
    Not everyone agrees with me.

    What is a "fact" is that any confirmed/proven such event would when compared to the sum of all non-events end up looking something like this: .000001% or less.

    Bear in mind that when the gauntlet is thrown publicly at my feet, I will pick it up. You have been here long enough to recognize that + our interaction has made that abundantly clear.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-07-2016 at 04:10 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    Article to me shows the civilians did a very good job - 3/4 killed attacker in most scenarios.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Goal of any encounter is to survive. I doubt anyone would go into such an environment ... as HPmatt noted, he ended up dead.

    And there is no statement of what the guy's intention was ... but in any event, he's doing it wrong.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 02-07-2016 at 04:31 PM.

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    I have instructed and participated in dozens of scenario based training and a lot of force and force training.

    It is not hard to design a scenario that is a win win or a lose lose.

    Designing them to be realistic is very hard.

    Unlike real encounters every body knows they are coming out alive.

    Most very body knows what is properly going to happen to some extent.

    It can be really good training or it can be bad training. Good training depends on the instructors and students to make the most of it.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 02-07-2016 at 04:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    My take is training is training no matter what form it takes.

    Good training teaches you useful habits and useful skills, bad training teaches bad habits and worthless skills.

    All training is not equal.
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  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Good training teaches you useful habits and useful skills, bad training teaches bad habits and worthless skills.

    All training is not equal.
    Insert thread title here: Ready. Aim. Truth.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    ever wore body armor? ever been shot? i have worn it and have been shot, you dont always notice that much kenitic energy when your hear is pumping. and a lot of bad guys have worn body armor. BOA shoot out in LA and the movie theature shooter in colorado recently, just to name 2 right off the top of my head. google might tell you more.
    I would agree with you on the kinetic one doesn't feel when the adrenalin to flowing I worn armor every day for over 33 year. I was never shot but I been punched and kicked in it. I lot of punches and kicks carry more energy then a lot of handgun bullets.

    One just has to watch the videos of Richard Davis the founder of second chance armor shooting him self and being shot to realize the bullets stopped by armor don't knock you down.

    As far as bad guys wearing armor it is rare the north holly wood shoot out is exceptional in that matter.

    The movie theater shooter did not have armor on it was a tactical vest wrongly reported as armor as are most of the reports of armor.
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  24. #24
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    I don't train ... I plan. They are different. Skills are picked up as needed in doing things to prepare to execute your plans.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/training

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/planning

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    the lad from the tarheel state has a question....simple question really...

    why in bloody h3ll did you ALL let yourselves get sucking into this discussion AGAIN by this savant?

    you know the outcome and yet in the space of two hours there are 23+ posts from folk urinating in a strong wind wondering why they are getting wet...

    the fool just dropped crap in the water and you are snapping it up amongst yourselves like you're piraña trying to get the last morsel even if it means nibbling on your neighbour's body by accident/purpose...

    ya'll are back to 2010 finding stories of this and that and ohhh lookie here at this or this scenario fits and this is what it proves....geeee you are making him look smart!!

    for goodness sake, cut the fish line and swim away from this savant.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 02-07-2016 at 05:12 PM. Reason: can't spell while typing
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