School District says all fenced school areas are "buildings"

Jeff Hayes · Feb 10, 2016

OC for ME said:
Let me rephrase.

RCW 9.41.290 and 300 do not seem to address whether or not a school (school district) has the authority to define the boundaries of its facilities. School is mentioned only once in 300 and that reference is for the location of a gun store and its proximity to a school.

What RCW authorizes a school to, or prohibits a school from, defining the boundaries of its own facilities.

RCW 9.41.290 has nothing to do with a school district defining its boundaries and every thing to do with preempting all firearms laws. The Legislature in RCW 9.41.280 3, said (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

The school district can not change that no matter how they define their boundaries.

OC for ME · Feb 11, 2016

Jeff Hayes said:
RCW 9.41.290 has nothing to do with a school district defining its boundaries and every thing to do with preempting all firearms laws. The Legislature in RCW 9.41.280 3, said (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

The school district can not change that no matter how they define their boundaries.

The school did not change preemption it changed the point at which picking up or dropping off can take place. Are you postulating that the school cannot exclude a permit holder from accessing any area of the school that is normally accessible to a visitor to the school?

Freedom1Man · Feb 11, 2016

OC for ME said:
A maximum of five...given the limited data to form a logical conclusion.

One

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Freedom1Man · Feb 11, 2016

Grapeshot said:
Didn't say it was the best/preferred action in this case.

Just pointing out that an arrest need not to have occurred.

According to our (in)justices, you must have an injury. See how well the not having to be arrested thing worked in the case against i594.

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zaitz · Feb 12, 2016

for about $300, you can sue and then have served your "complaint" on the school district.

Even if you lose, the process of suing often clarifies a number of things, for both you and for them.

z

Jeff Hayes · Feb 13, 2016

OC for ME said:
The school did not change preemption it changed the point at which picking up or dropping off can take place. Are you postulating that the school cannot exclude a permit holder from accessing any area of the school that is normally accessible to a visitor to the school?

No I am saying the RCW says CPL holders are exempt when picking up or dropping off a student, there is no mention of where the dropping off can occur or not occur. The way the law is written I believe one could OC to the door of the child's classroom, not that I would want to be the test case.

A fence even with slats does not meet the definition of a building by any stretch of the imagination.

Difdi · Feb 15, 2016

Doctor Woodrow said:
The Hockinson School District (where my kids go to school) put up a six foot tall black chainlink fence with privacy slats around the entire school, excluding the parking lot. This makes it more difficult to just walk on campus. I have been informed that the school district is now considering the entire fenced area as the 'school building' and I will no longer be allowed to carry my defensive sidearm while dropping off my child at her classroom. I usually walk her to her Kindergarten classroom door which is outside, and don't walk through any buildings.
Can they redefine what a building is? Is it legal for the district to do this? I am licensed under RCW 9.41.070 so I am allowed to carry while dropping off or picking up a student, as long as I do not enter a building. (see full reading of RCW 9.41.280 for reference).

Do schools pay property taxes? It seems to me that if they are claiming that kind of square footage as being buildings, they might cause their tax burden to go up.

Grapeshot · Feb 15, 2016

Difdi said:
Do schools pay property taxes? It seems to me that if they are claiming that kind of square footage as being buildings, they might cause their tax burden to go up.

Fenced property (land) doesn't meet the standard for building code (no cite) to be described as a building.

NavyMike · Feb 16, 2016

Grapeshot said:
Fenced property (land) doesn't meet the standard for building code (no cite) to be described as a building.

As I posted earlier, under Washington Criminal Code, a fenced area can meet the definition of a building.

I suspect that they are trying to use the broad definition of building found in RCW 9a.04.110 (5)

(5) "Building," in addition to its ordinary meaning, includes any dwelling, fenced area, vehicle, railway car, cargo container, or any other structure used for lodging of persons or for carrying on business therein, or for the use, sale, or deposit of goods; each unit of a building consisting of two or more units separately secured or occupied is a separate building;

Grapeshot · Feb 16, 2016

NavyMike said:
As I posted earlier, under Washington Criminal Code, a fenced area can meet the definition of a building.

I suspect that they are trying to use the broad definition of building found in RCW 9a.04.110 (5)

(5) "Building," in addition to its ordinary meaning, includes any dwelling, fenced area, vehicle, railway car, cargo container, or any other structure used for lodging of persons or for carrying on business therein, or for the use, sale, or deposit of goods; each unit of a building consisting of two or more units separately secured or occupied is a separate building;

That code section is about as clear as the Missouri River at full flood stage.

OC for ME · Feb 16, 2016

Grapeshot said:
That code section is about as clear as the Missouri River at full flood stage.

...did you have to google that?

Grapeshot · Feb 16, 2016

Originally Posted by Grapeshot
That code section is about as clear as the Missouri River at full flood stage.

OC for ME said:
...did you have to google that?

I was born and raised in Omaha - I've seen the mighty Mo over highways and bridges.

sudden valley gunner · Feb 22, 2016

Jeff Hayes said:
No I am saying the RCW says CPL holders are exempt when picking up or dropping off a student, there is no mention of where the dropping off can occur or not occur. The way the law is written I believe one could OC to the door of the child's classroom, not that I would want to be the test case.

A fence even with slats does not meet the definition of a building by any stretch of the imagination.

I see it this way too.

My son was told by the principle I could not OC on the motorcyle to pick him up and that they would call the cops.

So I did, to a bunch of middle school kids cheering, so it wasn't discreet, no cops made contact.

Grapeshot · Feb 22, 2016

sudden valley gunner said:
I see it this way too.

My son was told by the principle I could not OC on the motorcyle to pick him up and that they would call the cops.

So I did, to a bunch of middle school kids cheering, so it wasn't discreet, no cops made contact.

Hope you have very loud pipes on your bike too - wouldn't want anyone to miss your coming and going. :lol:

My Dodge Ram is very throaty - it is one of the ways that I advertise that I've arrived. People will look, see an OCer, and engage me in conversation = educating the public.

sudden valley gunner · Feb 23, 2016

Grapeshot said:
Hope you have very loud pipes on your bike too - wouldn't want anyone to miss your coming and going. :lol:

My Dodge Ram is very throaty - it is one of the ways that I advertise that I've arrived. People will look, see an OCer, and engage me in conversation = educating the public.

Not on that bike, my son had told his classmates I was coming and they knew of the threat by the principle so they came out to see the fun.

The other bike I have.....oh yea it does bring some attention :lol:

Jeff Hayes · Feb 23, 2016

NavyLCDR said:
You might want to read a little bit further down in the law there, Jeff. The exception for picking up or dropping off a student only exempts you from subsection (1). The exception for picking up or dropping off a student does NOT exempt you from subsection (6):
"(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building."

Again, picking up or dropping off a student does not exempt you from the subsection (6) prohibition of firearms in school buildings. It only exempts you from subsection (1).

A fence, even without slats, does meet the definition of a building contained in RCW 9.4a.110 (5).

However, the definition of building including fenced in areas in RCW 9.4a.110 (5) is only applicable to title 9 of the RCW. It is not applicable to RCW 28A.335.010 which, if it did, would require the school district to heat the entire fenced in area.

Now the question becomes; in RCW 9.4a.110 (5) only three conditions are allowed under which a fenced in area is considered a building:
1. "used for lodging of persons"
2. "for carrying on business therein" or
3. "for the use, sale, or deposit of goods"

Which function does attending school fall under?

Why don't you tell me which one is allowed?

If you want to discuss this fine, if you want to play set up games I am not interested.

Freedom1Man · Feb 24, 2016

NavyMike said:
As I posted earlier, under Washington Criminal Code, a fenced area can meet the definition of a building.

I suspect that they are trying to use the broad definition of building found in RCW 9a.04.110 (5)

(5) "Building," in addition to its ordinary meaning, includes any dwelling, fenced area, vehicle, railway car, cargo container, or any other structure used for lodging of persons or for carrying on business therein, or for the use, sale, or deposit of goods; each unit of a building consisting of two or more units separately secured or occupied is a separate building;

Context, double check the context that the definition is being used in.

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Jeff Hayes · Feb 24, 2016

NavyLCDR said:
In other words, you don't have an intelligent rebuttal to offer.

I asked a question, simple as that.

Jeff Hayes · Feb 24, 2016

NavyLCDR said:
You, with a CPL, are legally allowed to pick up or drop off a student on school grounds while armed - until you enter a building which is still prohibited to do while armed.

Thank you, I agree with you for what it is worth

School District says all fenced school areas are "buildings"

Jeff Hayes

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