Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Voting while carrying

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Chandler, AZ
    Posts
    4,047

    Voting while carrying

    So, can I carry, open or concealed while voting?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    No.

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...13&DocType=ARS

    Subsection 11.

    Please remit $0.03 legal research fee.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 02-09-2016 at 02:32 PM.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,875


    thought i might assist skid...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  4. #4
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    So, can I carry, open or concealed while voting?
    ARS 12.3012.A.11 says it's illegal. It's a misdemeanor, assuming you survive the SWAT team that will be called.

    Fred

  5. #5
    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Posts
    604
    Actually, I think Gutshot has something there. I'd check with a lawyer, but the way the statute reads, if you have a valid AZ carry license, you can carry in a polling place.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

  6. #6
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Actually, I think Gutshot has something there. I'd check with a lawyer, but the way the statute reads, if you have a valid AZ carry license, you can carry in a polling place.
    ARS 13-3102.A says "a person commits misconduct with a weapon by knowingly:" followed by several things not allowed. When you get to ARS 13-3012.11 it says "Unless specifically authorized by law, entering an election polling place on the day of any election carrying a deadly weapon."

    Putting together you are committing a crime by carrying a deadly weapon (a gun is a deadly weapon) into a polling place on election day.

    The exceptions are listed in ARS 13-3012.C - Having a CCW permit is not on the list. ARS 13-3102.C.4 ("A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.") is probably what is causing the confusion. A CCW permit is not a "license or permit" specifically authorized (or even vaguely alluded to) in any Arizona or federal statute that is covered by this section.

    All the "specifically authorized" are covered in the preceding 3 subparagraphs.

    Fred

  7. #7
    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Posts
    604
    Ok, so in AZ, a CCW license or permit is NOT a license or permit? Uh huh. Then why have them? Additionally, why add subpara 4 if the only exceptions are already spelled out in the three preceding subparas?

    It stands to reason that in a state where you don't actually NEED a CCW permit to carry, a person that has one IS "specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state" especially when ARS 13-3112 deals specifically with concealed weapons permits and the issuance thereof.

    Again, INAL, so the OP'er should find one and ask them.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

  8. #8
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Ok, so in AZ, a CCW license or permit is NOT a license or permit? Uh huh. Then why have them?
    In Arizona the CCW permit process creates a government database of those who officially seek permission to carry discreetly and issues them a "permit" to do so.

    However, it is not a permit to carry in a polling place. Check out ARS 13-3112, the concealed weapons statutes. All that is being granted is a permit to carry a non-exposed weapon in a state where there is no requirement to seek government approval to carry a weapon, exposed or discreetly.

    Like someone suggested, check with an attorney.

    Fred

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,154
    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    [...]Like someone suggested, check with an attorney.Fred
    Check with your paid personal attorney.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Ok, so in AZ, a CCW license or permit is NOT a license or permit? Uh huh. Then why have them?
    The 1912 Arizona Constitution says that the right to bear arms "shall not be impaired."

    In 1990 a state appeals court ruled, and the Supreme Court declined to review, that it was not an impairment to restrict concealed carry.

    In 1994 the Legislature instead of reaffirming the right to keep and bear arms created, with NRA's input, the abomination that became our CCW process. It only granted permission to carry a weapon concealed in lieu of open carry which was (and is) constitutionally protected. No other privileges are granted those with a CCW permit. It did little more than prevent you from being arrested if your gun was not in plain view from the perspective of the observer.

    In 2005 AzCDL was founded. In 2010 we got legislation passed removing the requirement to have a CCW permit to carry discreetly.

    The CCW permit was not eliminated, just made optional. A CCW permit is useful for those who travel to other states and is only required in establishments that serve booze - if they don't post a no-guns sign. Other than that there is no reason to have one.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 02-12-2016 at 12:29 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Update - The polling place statute was created a long time before the CCW permit statute. I have been informed that courts have ruled (sorry, no citations) that it was not the intent of the Legislature to include CCW permits in the polling place permit exception since permits did not exist at the time the polling place statute was written.

    Fred

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I am not so sure. What does this mean?
    C. Subsection A, paragraphs 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:
    1. A peace officer or any person summoned by any peace officer to assist and while actually assisting in the performance of official duties; or
    2. A member of the military forces of the United States or of any state of the United States in the performance of official duties; or
    3. A warden, deputy warden, community correctional officer, detention officer, special investigator or correctional officer of the state department of corrections or the department of juvenile corrections; or
    4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.

    The prohibition on carry in a polling place is in subsection A., paragraph 11. Does this mean that if you have an Arizona license you can carry in a polling place? Sure seems like it.

    I am sure that someone that is much more familiar with Arizona law will solve this dilemma for me. You might have to refund that 3 cents, skidmark.
    It depends, does the phrase 'specifically license, authorized or permitted' have some specific meaning?
    Must one be specifically permitted to carry while voting in order to carry while voting, or can just anyone do it? If just anyone can carry whilst voting then why specify that it must be specified that one must be specifically licensed, authorized or permitted?

    I get the idea that 'specifically' must have a certain ....... ahem, specific, meaning in this AZ Code.

    p.s. Funny thing even licensed, qualified, certified, diploma-ed police officers cannot by law carry while voting, unless they are in the performance of their duties (which I'm pretty sure voting isn't.)

    (As a point of interest, GA Code is somewhat similar, a prohibition against carrying in any polling place AND within 150 feet of any such place
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-13-2016 at 04:40 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    It depends, does the phrase 'specifically license, authorized or permitted' have some specific meaning?
    Must one be specifically permitted to carry while voting in order to carry while voting, or can just anyone do it? If just anyone can carry whilst voting then why specify that it must be specified that one must be specifically licensed, authorized or permitted?
    The law was written way before the CCW laws and does not apply to CCW permits.

    Fred

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    The law was written way before the CCW laws and does not apply to CCW permits.
    Fred
    Having lived in Aridzona back when it was 'carry any way you want, as long as it's openly', I'm of the same opinion. The issuance of a general license to carry isn't a specific license, authorization, or permit.

  15. #15
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Having lived in Aridzona back when it was 'carry any way you want, as long as it's openly', I'm of the same opinion. The issuance of a general license to carry isn't a specific license, authorization, or permit.
    Some of the confusion is what the CCW permit is and is not.

    It is not a general license to carry. "Bearing arms" is constitutionally protected. You don't need a permit to open carry. In 1990 the courts ruled that the constitutional protection on bearing arms did not apply to concealed carry. In 1994 the Legislature created a permit system for nothing more than allowing a person to carry concealed. No other privileges or licenses were included.

    As an aside, that same year (1994) the courts ruled that unless the observer could see the firearm, it was concealed. People were arrested for open carrying because the cop could not see their gun. For practical purposes you needed a CCW permit to carry openly to avoid arrest.

    Same with vehicles. The courts ruled in 1994 that unless the gun could be seen from outside the car, it was concealed. And everybody in the car had to have a permit if the gun was deemed accessible to the passengers. When I took my official DPS CCW Instructor course, the cops who taught it bragged about arresting passengers without permits.

    Fred

  16. #16
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Secret Bunker
    Posts
    2,573
    To clarify Fred, you are speaking of past rulings, that have since been nullified, or in some other form been revised so that (today), folks without a permit aren't getting hauled away to jail for carrying in a car without a permit. Correct?
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-16-2016 at 01:39 AM.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #17
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    To clarify Fred, you are speaking of past rulings, that have since been nullified, or in some other form been revised so that (today), folks without a permit aren't getting hauled away to jail for carrying in a car without a permit. Correct?
    Yes, these are past rulings that have been nullified by eliminating the requirement to have a permit in order to discreetly carry a firearm.

    Those rulings are a prime example why one should not rely only on statute. At the time those rulings were in effect, the law stated that a gun was NOT concealed if the holster (not the gun) was "wholly or partially visible." All the self-styled legal experts, who didn't bother to keep up with the court cases, thought that as long as a tiny part of your holster peeked out from under your jacket you were home free and didn't need a permit. Reality was much different.

    Fred

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •