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Thread: hmmmm, did Jeb have to fill out 4473?

  1. #1
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    hmmmm, did Jeb have to fill out 4473?

    quote:
    Jeb Bush Visits FN America South Carolina Plant

    Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush visited the FN America manufacturing plant in Columbia, South Carolina, on Tuesday morning, holding a town hall-style meeting ahead of Saturday's Republican presidential primary election. Bush was presented with a personally engraved handgun at the event, where he shared his views on a variety of topics, including the Second Amendment. Speaking to reporters later that day, Bush said, "The purpose [of the visit] was we went to a gun manufacturing facility where lots of jobs are created, high-wage jobs. And I received a gun and I was honored to have it." unquote attributed to NSSF Government Relations Update 19 Feb 2016, retrieved 21 Feb 16.

    this is Jeb's second firearm recently received...

    did he have to personally complete a 4473 & FBI NICS check?

    if a 'memorabilia' type gift would it be operational or just a frame with engraving on it?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Well of course he followed the law. After all we are all equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Well of course he followed the law. After all we are all equal.
    No, particularly not in our knowledge of the law and its manipulation to our personal benefit.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No, particularly not in our knowledge of the law and its manipulation to our personal benefit.
    I think you know I was being sarcastic.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Probably some nameless and faceless underling filled out the form and presented it to Jeb to sign.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 02-21-2016 at 09:49 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I think you know I was being sarcastic.
    So, do two sarcasms make it a'right? As we are not equal in our command of the law, neither are equal in our command of (written) language.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Probably some nameless and faceless underling filled out the form and presented it to Jeb to sign.
    I think the rules require the person filling out the form is filling out the form for themselves. You are signing the form under the penalty of perjury.

  8. #8
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    now, if presented as a memorabilia to the recent presidential drop-out i can personally see no requirement to complete a 4473 per se.

    tho i do wonder if they dobb'd the muzzle in bright orange paint first before they presented it to him?

    (bad ipse, bad...back to your corner for making fun of the loser!!)

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut

    Probably some nameless and faceless underling filled out the form and presented it to Jeb to sign.
    I think the rules require the person filling out the form is filling out the form for themselves. You are signing the form under the penalty of perjury.
    I am very well aware the form says section A must be completed personally by transferee (buyer) but I am also aware of how busy politicians delegate tedious tasks like filling out forms to underlings.

    Perhaps I should have said "I suspect" instead of "probably" in my post.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I am very well aware the form says section A must be completed personally by transferee (buyer) but I am also aware of how busy politicians delegate tedious tasks like filling out forms to underlings.

    Perhaps I should have said "I suspect" instead of "probably" in my post.
    Actually after looking at the 4473 instructions for question 11a. the gun falls into the gift category. If Jeb lives in FL the 4473 is required.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    quote:
    Jeb Bush Visits FN America South Carolina Plant

    Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush visited the FN America manufacturing plant in Columbia, South Carolina, on Tuesday morning, holding a town hall-style meeting ahead of Saturday's Republican presidential primary election. Bush was presented with a personally engraved handgun at the event, where he shared his views on a variety of topics, including the Second Amendment. Speaking to reporters later that day, Bush said, "The purpose [of the visit] was we went to a gun manufacturing facility where lots of jobs are created, high-wage jobs. And I received a gun and I was honored to have it." unquote attributed to NSSF Government Relations Update 19 Feb 2016, retrieved 21 Feb 16.

    this is Jeb's second firearm recently received...

    did he have to personally complete a 4473 & FBI NICS check?

    if a 'memorabilia' type gift would it be operational or just a frame with engraving on it?

    ipse
    I have repeatedly addressed this issue. The form 4473 is not legally for what most people believe it to be for.

    18 USC 10:
    The term ''interstate commerce'', as used in this title, includes commerce between one State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia and another State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia. The term ''foreign commerce'', as used in this title, includes commerce with a foreign country.

    This is a pretty clear definition - and it will get clearer as this article proceeds!

    Interestingly, "interstate commerce" and "foreign commerce" are redefined just for chapter 44. For use within chapter 44, they are no longer two separate items, but have been combined into one legal term, to wit:

    18 USC 921(2)
    The term ''interstate or foreign commerce'' includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term ''State'' includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).
    [emphasis and underlining added]

    You should recognize that as a legal term, the phrase "interstate or foreign commerce" does not mean what logic might tell you it means. You must remember that it means only what Congress says it means and nothing more!

    We have had to ask ourselves why the general definition provided in 10 was inadequate for use within chapter 44. If 10 was a good enough definition for all of Title 18 generally, why is it not adequate for chapter 44?

    The only distinction we find is in the use of the words "...any place in a State...". Why is that change so essential? Why go through the hassle of altering the definition just to add two little words? On the surface it doesn't seem to make sense - or does it? Maybe we should ask what "place within a State" might the definition be referring to, and why would that distinction be important? Let's explore!

    Title 18, 13 is a general provision section (which means it is operative throughout the Title) and is entitled "Laws of States adopted for areas within Federal jurisdiction". What does that title mean? One of the things it means is that there is "State jurisdiction" and there is "federal jurisdiction", and the two are not the same.

    Before we explore 13 any further, we need to take a brief side trip and look at 7. We need to do this because 7 is specifically referred to in 13, and we'll get lost if we don't understand exactly what is being referred to in 7.

    Section 7 defines the "Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States". Although the definition is a bit long and wordy, here is the essential part in reference to what we are discussing in this article:

    18 USC 7(3):
    Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building.

    The basic meaning of that definition is any location that is not under State sovereignty, but solely under federal sovereignty, or otherwise within federal jurisdiction. It must be remembered that such federal "places" exist within the states of the Union.

    One should take note of the common language, and common meaning, between 18 USC 7, and Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 of the US Constitution:

    To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same [federal place] shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings

    Now that you can clearly see where 7 is taking us, let's go back to 13; specifically, subsection (a).

    [Editor's Note: We've removed some of the excessive wordiness from 13(a) that might tend to confuse the meaning for the first-time reader.]

    18 USC 13(a):
    Whoever within...any places...provided in section 7 of this title...not within the jurisdiction of any State...is guilty of any act or omission which, although not made punishable by any enactment of Congress, would be punishable if committed or omitted within the jurisdiction of the State...in which such place is situated...
    http://originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php

    In short the average guy/gal does not need to fill out the 4473. So, Jeb, being one of the educated, likely did not fill one out because we are not required to.

    All of this media controlled information about gun dealers (more paperwork than required by law), laws (how can anyone even claim to all of them), automobiles (the state owns most all of them), and taxes (paying more than legally required).


    I have shown the law backing up my claim about the 4473. No one has been able to cite to the contrary.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I have repeatedly addressed this issue. The form 4473 is not legally for what most people believe it to be for.


    http://originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php

    In short the average guy/gal does not need to fill out the 4473. So, Jeb, being one of the educated, likely did not fill one out because we are not required to.

    All of this media controlled information about gun dealers (more paperwork than required by law), laws (how can anyone even claim to all of them), automobiles (the state owns most all of them), and taxes (paying more than legally required).


    I have shown the law backing up my claim about the 4473. No one has been able to cite to the contrary.

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    (throwing BS flag...)

    the mumble jumble you quoted from heaven knows what source they were derived from or what magic mushroom was being smoked while it was writted doesn't back up jack scat about your claim a 4473 is not needed.

    to further cloud this discussion, your exhibition of intellectual bravado...to claim Jeb Bush is one of the educated is a hoot.

    sorry didn't show a blood thing here ...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    (throwing BS flag...)

    the mumble jumble you quoted from heaven knows what source they were derived from or what magic mushroom was being smoked while it was writted doesn't back up jack scat about your claim a 4473 is not needed.

    to further cloud this discussion, your exhibition of intellectual bravado...to claim Jeb Bush is one of the educated is a hoot.

    sorry didn't show a blood thing here ...

    ipse
    Great, you cite the law showing that everyone is required to fill out a 4473 to buy from a gun shop.

    I did link to the rest of the information that proves you wrong. No one has been able to make the citation that I have asked for, repeatedly.

    I doubt that you will be the first.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Is a 4473 required for a non-retail "transaction?"
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  15. #15
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is a 4473 required for a non-retail "transaction?"
    I have been referring to retail transactions, and I have said no.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Great, you cite the law showing that everyone is required to fill out a 4473 to buy from a gun shop.

    I did link to the rest of the information that proves you wrong. No one has been able to make the citation that I have asked for, repeatedly.

    I doubt that you will be the first.
    sorry...but i would believe, the manufacturer is considered a licensee...by ATF standards.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  17. #17
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I have been referring to retail transactions, and I have said no.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Ok, here is the challenge:

    when i am in the evergreen state later this year, we will meet at a cabelas, gander, sports authority, or big 5 type box store, we will go in and you will purchase an XD, or similar type & cost handgun, as i watch you complete the transaction w/o benefit of 4473 and NICS ck. (both mandated by law which you unequivocally state is negated by your mumble jumble, rambling manifesto article)

    upon successful completion of this firearm transaction w/o benefit of a 4473 or NICS ck, i will reimburse you the cost of the firearm, in cash.

    please do not construe this as a strawman, real or perceived, as you are and will be the lawful owner of the firearm, forever and ever.

    i will meet you anywhere in the state but the purchase will transpire in a calelas, gander, sports authority, big five, etc. not a mom & pop you have rapport.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 02-22-2016 at 11:10 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  18. #18
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    now that Jeb has backed out of the race...does he have to give the two firearms back??

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is a 4473 required for a non-retail "transaction?"
    I believe so. When I sent a Glock back for a frame replacement no money exchanged hands, but I still had to fill out a 4473.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    now that Jeb has backed out of the race...does he have to give the two firearms back??

    ipse
    Probably not, but I would like to know if he carries. Getting a firearm gifted does not mean a person is 2A supporter, he could be a FUDD. His brother claimed he was 2A, but he said he would sign an assault weapons law. His father signed the GFSZA into law. Besides he has body guards to protect him, just like the rest of the elite.

    If Trump is telling the truth, he carries, and he can afford body guards.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  21. #21
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Ok, here is the challenge:

    when i am in the evergreen state later this year, we will meet at a cabelas, gander, sports authority, or big 5 type box store, we will go in and you will purchase an XD, or similar type & cost handgun, as i watch you complete the transaction w/o benefit of 4473 and NICS ck. (both mandated by law which you unequivocally state is negated by your mumble jumble, rambling manifesto article)

    upon successful completion of this firearm transaction w/o benefit of a 4473 or NICS ck, i will reimburse you the cost of the firearm, in cash.

    please do not construe this as a strawman, real or perceived, as you are and will be the lawful owner of the firearm, forever and ever.

    i will meet you anywhere in the state but the purchase will transpire in a calelas, gander, sports authority, big five, etc. not a mom & pop you have rapport.

    ipse
    Show me one dealer who follows the law as written.

    I have learned first hand that most companies ignore the law and do what they are told by their government overlords.

    I can prove that those places you have mentioned are involved in the commission of various felonies of which the courts have had split rulings on. One court had gone so far as to say that the law was not allowed in the court room.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Show me one dealer who follows the law as written.

    I have learned first hand that most companies ignore the law and do what they are told by their government overlords.

    I can prove that those places you have mentioned are involved in the commission of various felonies of which the courts have had split rulings on. One court had gone so far as to say that the law was not allowed in the court room.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    sorry, your presumption(s) of what you have learned and believe you can prove, are truly irrelevant at this point in time, and...

    i shall consider your lack of any type of firm answer to my challenge, as originally presented, to prove your mumbo jumbo, ranting rhetoric theories, one way or the other, as you do not wish to take me up on my offer.

    therefore, if you do not have enough faith and conviction in your own rhetoric believe in and sling, then the august members shouldn't either.

    personally, IMHO, your credibility factor has dropped below zero to owing the membership points.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry, your presumption(s) of what you have learned and believe you can prove, are truly irrelevant at this point in time, and...

    i shall consider your lack of any type of firm answer to my challenge, as originally presented, to prove your mumbo jumbo, ranting rhetoric theories, one way or the other, as you do not wish to take me up on my offer.

    therefore, if you do not have enough faith and conviction in your own rhetoric believe in and sling, then the august members shouldn't either.

    personally, IMHO, your credibility factor has dropped below zero to owing the membership points.

    ipse
    I have only cited the law. You have only refered to the status quo.

    I have had the laws ignored by judges even. There is no justice. Since you're not able to cite any law contradictory to my citation of the law, along with other info, you're violating the "show me" rule on the forum.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I have only cited the law. You have only refered to the status quo.

    I have had the laws ignored by judges even. There is no justice. Since you're not able to cite any law contradictory to my citation of the law, along with other info, you're violating the "show me" rule on the forum.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    i am truly sorry you must live believing your own conspiracies in your life, and i am astonished to think a judge would even think to ignore anything you would present to them as legal precedence.

    but as for citation of law (?) ~ that mumble, jumble, ranting hyperbole didn't proving anything regarding the subject at hand and only causes your credibility to fall into the negative double digits.

    you may continue to rant about who won...but i will not entertain any further discussion of your hyperbole being right, especially since you do not believe in it enough to accept the challenge of letting me watch you purchase a firearm w/o completing a 4473 from a box store.

    ispe
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    A licensed dealer will not jeopardize his license, period. And from my many years of experience the courts will not interpret the commerce clause as written.
    A dealer can transfer any firearm out of his inventory to himself as a private citizen (not a licensed person) using a 4473. Then the private citizen can sell the firearm on his own accord to whomever.......

    You will not win the commerce clause argument no matter how correct you are.....

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