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hmmmm, did Jeb have to fill out 4473?

Freedom1Man

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sorry, your presumption(s) of what you have learned and believe you can prove, are truly irrelevant at this point in time, and...

i shall consider your lack of any type of firm answer to my challenge, as originally presented, to prove your mumbo jumbo, ranting rhetoric theories, one way or the other, as you do not wish to take me up on my offer.

therefore, if you do not have enough faith and conviction in your own rhetoric believe in and sling, then the august members shouldn't either.

personally, IMHO, your credibility factor has dropped below zero to owing the membership points.

ipse
I have only cited the law. You have only refered to the status quo.

I have had the laws ignored by judges even. There is no justice. Since you're not able to cite any law contradictory to my citation of the law, along with other info, you're violating the "show me" rule on the forum.

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solus

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here nc
I have only cited the law. You have only refered to the status quo.

I have had the laws ignored by judges even. There is no justice. Since you're not able to cite any law contradictory to my citation of the law, along with other info, you're violating the "show me" rule on the forum.

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i am truly sorry you must live believing your own conspiracies in your life, and i am astonished to think a judge would even think to ignore anything you would present to them as legal precedence.

but as for citation of law (?) ~ that mumble, jumble, ranting hyperbole didn't proving anything regarding the subject at hand and only causes your credibility to fall into the negative double digits.

you may continue to rant about who won...but i will not entertain any further discussion of your hyperbole being right, especially since you do not believe in it enough to accept the challenge of letting me watch you purchase a firearm w/o completing a 4473 from a box store.

ispe
 

color of law

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Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
A licensed dealer will not jeopardize his license, period. And from my many years of experience the courts will not interpret the commerce clause as written.
A dealer can transfer any firearm out of his inventory to himself as a private citizen (not a licensed person) using a 4473. Then the private citizen can sell the firearm on his own accord to whomever.......

You will not win the commerce clause argument no matter how correct you are.....
 

solus

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A licensed dealer will not jeopardize his license, period. And from my many years of experience the courts will not interpret the commerce clause as written.
A dealer can transfer any firearm out of his inventory to himself as a private citizen (not a licensed person) using a 4473. Then the private citizen can sell the firearm on his own accord to whomever.......

You will not win the commerce clause argument no matter how correct you are.....

§ 478.125a Personal firearms collection.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of §478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the
licensee’s personal firearms collection:
(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,

(2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by §478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition,

(3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by §478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm

as you can see licensees do not need a 4473 but only required to annotate their A&D records the firearm was xfered to the licensee for personal use and must maintain possession of the firearm for a minimum of 1 year.

atf's 2014 reference guide, pg 66.

ipse
 
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MAC702

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Nevada
I think the rules require the person filling out the form is filling out the form for themselves. You are signing the form under the penalty of perjury.

If said person had power of attorney, would that meet the requirement? After all, there must be some accommodation made for persons with disabilities, too, right?
 

color of law

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If said person had power of attorney, would that meet the requirement? After all, there must be some accommodation made for persons with disabilities, too, right?
Oh my gosh, why would you ever ask such a question????? Now I see hours and hours of research. On the other hand the definitive answer is an absolute maybe.
 
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Freedom1Man

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§ 478.125a Personal firearms collection.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of §478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the
licensee’s personal firearms collection:
(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,

(2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by §478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition,

(3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by §478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm

as you can see licensees do not need a 4473 but only required to annotate their A&D records the firearm was xfered to the licensee for personal use and must maintain possession of the firearm for a minimum of 1 year.

atf's 2014 reference guide, pg 66.

ipse
Reference guide is not law.

Please cite the law, the USC title and section. The source you cite still only applies within the limits of the law.

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OC for ME

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White Oak Plantation
The sale or other disposition of a firearm shall be recorded by the licensed dealer not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a nonlicensee, the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, obtained by the licensed dealer shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from the licensee's Form 4473 file and be readily available for inspection.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.125#e
It seems that a nonlicensee must complete a 4473 to receive a firearm from a licensee. There is now two 4473's for the same gun...double gun registration?
 

solus

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here nc
Reference guide is not law.

Please cite the law, the USC title and section. The source you cite still only applies within the limits of the law.

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not playing your mythical & conspiratorial games...

go find a mirror to have this discussion with...

ipse
 

solus

Regular Member
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Messages
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here nc
It seems that a nonlicensee must complete a 4473 to receive a firearm from a licensee. There is now two 4473's for the same gun...double gun registration?

singular...tis poorly written but in essence, the one the 'non-licensee' (read buyer) completed right before the NICS ck initiated, if mandated by state law. upon 'confirmation' buyer can purchase, and when money was exchanged and firearm given to the new owner, the ATF puts time limits for the licensee to annotate their A&D book.

there is a tighter timeframe for the licensee to annotate their A&D book upon first receipt of a newly received firearm.

ipse
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
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Messages
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Location
Nevada
Since this has become the "how are the forms filled out" thread, here are a couple to ponder:

How do you sell a firearm to a "homeless" person? Let's say that circumstances have put someone living in their car, and he decides that it is in his best interests to have a firearm. No one would argue he has the right to do so, right? What if he admits to the dealer that the address on his ID is no longer correct and that he is living in his car?

There is a large push in many states to require ID for voting. The argument against it is that people have a RIGHT to vote, and that some people don't have ID. The politics of who is more likely to not have ID, and for which Party they usually vote, is irrelevant to this. This same person that has the RIGHT to vote, also has the RIGHT to a firearm. Where are the screams about injustices for these no-ID persons to be able to buy alcohol, tobacco, spray paint, and firearms?
 

solus

Regular Member
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here nc
ATF Rul. 2010-6:
quote:
The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as "[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.

As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 156 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement. unquote

Mac, et al., if someone is living out of the vehicle, they should have a DL & vehicle registration...(note: nowhere did the quoted statute state the documents reflect current living abode address nor the Licensee must validate same - NICS problem, eh?)

note: not splitting hairs with the ATF's term 'not limited to' of whether or not this or that type of document is acceptable.

my FFL friends tell me the only thing acceptable form of identification to purchase a firearm in the great state of NC is a PPP OR CHP ~ period!!

ipse
 
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Freedom1Man

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Greater Eastside Washington
not playing your mythical & conspiratorial games...

go find a mirror to have this discussion with...

ipse
I have given reference to the law. You have only referenced the status quo.

Since when did wanting the law to be followed become a mythical activity?

Also, why do you fail to cite the law requiring a 4473 from a dealer? No one here has been able to make the cite I am asking of you. Also, if there is no law requiring it from the average dealer sale, then there can be no requirement. If there was a requirement then you should be able to show it clearly.

While copying the information from the site did not work out perfectly from my phone, it does not invalidate the information. The site cited the law clearly, hence the link to the site.

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solus

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here nc
not playing your mythical & conspiratorial games...


go find a mirror to have this discussion with...


ipse
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
not playing your mythical & conspiratorial games...


go find a mirror to have this discussion with...


ipse
Attacking the messenger.... I thought you were better than that.

If you cannot cite the, simply admit that the law is not being followed. We already know that the Constitution is being ignored.

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