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hmmmm, did Jeb have to fill out 4473?

solus

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quote:
Jeb Bush Visits FN America South Carolina Plant

Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush visited the FN America manufacturing plant in Columbia, South Carolina, on Tuesday morning, holding a town hall-style meeting ahead of Saturday's Republican presidential primary election. Bush was presented with a personally engraved handgun at the event, where he shared his views on a variety of topics, including the Second Amendment. Speaking to reporters later that day, Bush said, "The purpose [of the visit] was we went to a gun manufacturing facility where lots of jobs are created, high-wage jobs. And I received a gun and I was honored to have it." unquote attributed to NSSF Government Relations Update 19 Feb 2016, retrieved 21 Feb 16.

this is Jeb's second firearm recently received...

did he have to personally complete a 4473 & FBI NICS check?

if a 'memorabilia' type gift would it be operational or just a frame with engraving on it?

ipse
 
B

Bikenut

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Probably some nameless and faceless underling filled out the form and presented it to Jeb to sign.
 
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solus

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now, if presented as a memorabilia to the recent presidential drop-out i can personally see no requirement to complete a 4473 per se.

tho i do wonder if they dobb'd the muzzle in bright orange paint first before they presented it to him?

(bad ipse, bad...back to your corner for making fun of the loser!!)

ipse
 
B

Bikenut

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Originally Posted by Bikenut

Probably some nameless and faceless underling filled out the form and presented it to Jeb to sign.

I think the rules require the person filling out the form is filling out the form for themselves. You are signing the form under the penalty of perjury.
I am very well aware the form says section A must be completed personally by transferee (buyer) but I am also aware of how busy politicians delegate tedious tasks like filling out forms to underlings.

Perhaps I should have said "I suspect" instead of "probably" in my post.
 

color of law

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I am very well aware the form says section A must be completed personally by transferee (buyer) but I am also aware of how busy politicians delegate tedious tasks like filling out forms to underlings.

Perhaps I should have said "I suspect" instead of "probably" in my post.
Actually after looking at the 4473 instructions for question 11a. the gun falls into the gift category. If Jeb lives in FL the 4473 is required.
 

Freedom1Man

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quote:
Jeb Bush Visits FN America South Carolina Plant

Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush visited the FN America manufacturing plant in Columbia, South Carolina, on Tuesday morning, holding a town hall-style meeting ahead of Saturday's Republican presidential primary election. Bush was presented with a personally engraved handgun at the event, where he shared his views on a variety of topics, including the Second Amendment. Speaking to reporters later that day, Bush said, "The purpose [of the visit] was we went to a gun manufacturing facility where lots of jobs are created, high-wage jobs. And I received a gun and I was honored to have it." unquote attributed to NSSF Government Relations Update 19 Feb 2016, retrieved 21 Feb 16.

this is Jeb's second firearm recently received...

did he have to personally complete a 4473 & FBI NICS check?

if a 'memorabilia' type gift would it be operational or just a frame with engraving on it?

ipse
I have repeatedly addressed this issue. The form 4473 is not legally for what most people believe it to be for.

18 USC §10:
The term ''interstate commerce'', as used in this title, includes commerce between one State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia and another State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia. The term ''foreign commerce'', as used in this title, includes commerce with a foreign country.

This is a pretty clear definition - and it will get clearer as this article proceeds!

Interestingly, "interstate commerce" and "foreign commerce" are redefined just for chapter 44. For use within chapter 44, they are no longer two separate items, but have been combined into one legal term, to wit:

18 USC §921(2)
The term ''interstate or foreign commerce'' includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term ''State'' includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).
[emphasis and underlining added]

You should recognize that as a legal term, the phrase "interstate or foreign commerce" does not mean what logic might tell you it means. You must remember that it means only what Congress says it means and nothing more!

We have had to ask ourselves why the general definition provided in §10 was inadequate for use within chapter 44. If §10 was a good enough definition for all of Title 18 generally, why is it not adequate for chapter 44?

The only distinction we find is in the use of the words "...any place in a State...". Why is that change so essential? Why go through the hassle of altering the definition just to add two little words? On the surface it doesn't seem to make sense - or does it? Maybe we should ask what "place within a State" might the definition be referring to, and why would that distinction be important? Let's explore!

Title 18, §13 is a general provision section (which means it is operative throughout the Title) and is entitled "Laws of States adopted for areas within Federal jurisdiction". What does that title mean? One of the things it means is that there is "State jurisdiction" and there is "federal jurisdiction", and the two are not the same.

Before we explore §13 any further, we need to take a brief side trip and look at §7. We need to do this because §7 is specifically referred to in §13, and we'll get lost if we don't understand exactly what is being referred to in §7.

Section 7 defines the "Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States". Although the definition is a bit long and wordy, here is the essential part in reference to what we are discussing in this article:

18 USC §7(3):
Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building.

The basic meaning of that definition is any location that is not under State sovereignty, but solely under federal sovereignty, or otherwise within federal jurisdiction. It must be remembered that such federal "places" exist within the states of the Union.

One should take note of the common language, and common meaning, between 18 USC §7, and Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 of the US Constitution:

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same [federal place] shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings

Now that you can clearly see where §7 is taking us, let's go back to §13; specifically, subsection (a).

[Editor's Note: We've removed some of the excessive wordiness from §13(a) that might tend to confuse the meaning for the first-time reader.]

18 USC §13(a):
Whoever within...any places...provided in section 7 of this title...not within the jurisdiction of any State...is guilty of any act or omission which, although not made punishable by any enactment of Congress, would be punishable if committed or omitted within the jurisdiction of the State...in which such place is situated...
http://originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php

In short the average guy/gal does not need to fill out the 4473. So, Jeb, being one of the educated, likely did not fill one out because we are not required to.

All of this media controlled information about gun dealers (more paperwork than required by law), laws (how can anyone even claim to all of them), automobiles (the state owns most all of them), and taxes (paying more than legally required).


I have shown the law backing up my claim about the 4473. No one has been able to cite to the contrary.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
 

solus

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I have repeatedly addressed this issue. The form 4473 is not legally for what most people believe it to be for.


http://originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php

In short the average guy/gal does not need to fill out the 4473. So, Jeb, being one of the educated, likely did not fill one out because we are not required to.

All of this media controlled information about gun dealers (more paperwork than required by law), laws (how can anyone even claim to all of them), automobiles (the state owns most all of them), and taxes (paying more than legally required).


I have shown the law backing up my claim about the 4473. No one has been able to cite to the contrary.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

(throwing BS flag...)

the mumble jumble you quoted from heaven knows what source they were derived from or what magic mushroom was being smoked while it was writted doesn't back up jack scat about your claim a 4473 is not needed.

to further cloud this discussion, your exhibition of intellectual bravado...to claim Jeb Bush is one of the educated is a hoot.

sorry didn't show a blood thing here ...

ipse
 

Freedom1Man

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(throwing BS flag...)

the mumble jumble you quoted from heaven knows what source they were derived from or what magic mushroom was being smoked while it was writted doesn't back up jack scat about your claim a 4473 is not needed.

to further cloud this discussion, your exhibition of intellectual bravado...to claim Jeb Bush is one of the educated is a hoot.

sorry didn't show a blood thing here ...

ipse

Great, you cite the law showing that everyone is required to fill out a 4473 to buy from a gun shop.

I did link to the rest of the information that proves you wrong. No one has been able to make the citation that I have asked for, repeatedly.

I doubt that you will be the first.
 

solus

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Great, you cite the law showing that everyone is required to fill out a 4473 to buy from a gun shop.

I did link to the rest of the information that proves you wrong. No one has been able to make the citation that I have asked for, repeatedly.

I doubt that you will be the first.

sorry...but i would believe, the manufacturer is considered a licensee...by ATF standards.

ipse
 

solus

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I have been referring to retail transactions, and I have said no.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

Ok, here is the challenge:

when i am in the evergreen state later this year, we will meet at a cabelas, gander, sports authority, or big 5 type box store, we will go in and you will purchase an XD, or similar type & cost handgun, as i watch you complete the transaction w/o benefit of 4473 and NICS ck. (both mandated by law which you unequivocally state is negated by your mumble jumble, rambling manifesto article)

upon successful completion of this firearm transaction w/o benefit of a 4473 or NICS ck, i will reimburse you the cost of the firearm, in cash.

please do not construe this as a strawman, real or perceived, as you are and will be the lawful owner of the firearm, forever and ever.

i will meet you anywhere in the state but the purchase will transpire in a calelas, gander, sports authority, big five, etc. not a mom & pop you have rapport.

ipse
 
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solus

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now that Jeb has backed out of the race...does he have to give the two firearms back??

ipse
 

WalkingWolf

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now that Jeb has backed out of the race...does he have to give the two firearms back??

ipse

Probably not, but I would like to know if he carries. Getting a firearm gifted does not mean a person is 2A supporter, he could be a FUDD. His brother claimed he was 2A, but he said he would sign an assault weapons law. His father signed the GFSZA into law. Besides he has body guards to protect him, just like the rest of the elite.

If Trump is telling the truth, he carries, and he can afford body guards.
 

Freedom1Man

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Ok, here is the challenge:

when i am in the evergreen state later this year, we will meet at a cabelas, gander, sports authority, or big 5 type box store, we will go in and you will purchase an XD, or similar type & cost handgun, as i watch you complete the transaction w/o benefit of 4473 and NICS ck. (both mandated by law which you unequivocally state is negated by your mumble jumble, rambling manifesto article)

upon successful completion of this firearm transaction w/o benefit of a 4473 or NICS ck, i will reimburse you the cost of the firearm, in cash.

please do not construe this as a strawman, real or perceived, as you are and will be the lawful owner of the firearm, forever and ever.

i will meet you anywhere in the state but the purchase will transpire in a calelas, gander, sports authority, big five, etc. not a mom & pop you have rapport.

ipse
Show me one dealer who follows the law as written.

I have learned first hand that most companies ignore the law and do what they are told by their government overlords.

I can prove that those places you have mentioned are involved in the commission of various felonies of which the courts have had split rulings on. One court had gone so far as to say that the law was not allowed in the court room.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
 

solus

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Show me one dealer who follows the law as written.

I have learned first hand that most companies ignore the law and do what they are told by their government overlords.

I can prove that those places you have mentioned are involved in the commission of various felonies of which the courts have had split rulings on. One court had gone so far as to say that the law was not allowed in the court room.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

sorry, your presumption(s) of what you have learned and believe you can prove, are truly irrelevant at this point in time, and...

i shall consider your lack of any type of firm answer to my challenge, as originally presented, to prove your mumbo jumbo, ranting rhetoric theories, one way or the other, as you do not wish to take me up on my offer.

therefore, if you do not have enough faith and conviction in your own rhetoric believe in and sling, then the august members shouldn't either.

personally, IMHO, your credibility factor has dropped below zero to owing the membership points.

ipse
 
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