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Thread: Amelia County is At It Again!

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    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Amelia County is At It Again!

    When I renewed my CHP in 2013, The county clerk sent my mailed in renewal application back to me saying, "that I had to renew in person and fill out the form for a new background check. My wife is in the process of renewing her permit and called the clerk to ask if the first page of the application was all she needed to mail in. She was informed that they didn't accept mailed applications and she would have to come to the courthouse and fill out the waiver for a new background check. It was my understanding in 2013 and now that the Va legislature passed a law allowing mail in applications for permit renewal. In 2013, I finally got my permit renewed after Grape, and Peter Napp went to Amelia courthouse to discuss it with the clerk, and Peter video taped the discussion. Has the renewal by mail law been changed? I know this an open carry group, but I think it is in the interest of all gun owners to ensure that the various jurisdictions follow the state laws instead of making up their own. Also, does anyone know how to contact the VCDL concerning this?
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    from the 'vcdl' facebook page
    His phone number is 804-639-0600 and email president@vcdl.org
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sigh - gotta take the clerk behind the woodshed again and have a serious discussion.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    print out and place before the clerk:

    http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/t...n18.2-308.010/

    Nowhere does it require the application to be made in person in front of the clerk. Ask them to cite the Code section that they think requires the applicant to submit the application in person.

    Be polite.

    http://corsinet.com/braincandy/hlife.html

    Only if you get stymied by the clerk should you be asking for someone to help you. First because it puts the clerk on notice that mere citizens know the law. Second, it establishes a baseline documenting the obstinacy of the clerk and where their legal interpretation comes from.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 02-24-2016 at 07:44 PM. Reason: link to snark added
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    One thought I've had is that doesn't the application form have to be notarized? You can usually get the clerk to do that for you, and that could be why they're saying you have to appear in person, so they can notarize the form for you.

    Of course you can get any other Notary to do it for you, I go to the local branch of my bank for anything I need notarized. Last time I checked my wife's Notary Commission had not expired so she could always notarize for you, but you'd have to travel to Ashland and she is not likely to do it free of charge (strictly speaking it's a conflict of interest if she were to notarize anything for me, that's why I use the bank instead).

    Although you don't have to appear in person, sometimes it might be convenient.

    I'm not saying they're right to say you have to appear in person, just offering a possible explanation
    Last edited by scouser; 02-25-2016 at 03:22 PM.
    JFT 96

    I'm sorry, did I offend you with my opinion?
    You should hear the ones I keep to myself.

    Porthos, Athos, and Aramis = peter nap, skidmark and Grapeshot, d'Artagnan = ?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Banks and S & Ls where one has an account will usually notarize, professionally witness, your signature. Do not sign it before hand - sign only in front of the notary.

    Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    One thought I've had is that doesn't the application form have to be notarized? You can usually get the clerk to do that for you, and that could be why they're saying you have to appear in person, so they can notarize the form for you.

    Of course you can get any other Notary to do it for you, I go to the local branch of my bank for anything I need notarized. Last time I checked my wife's Notary Commission had not expired so she could always notarize for you, but you'd have to travel to Ashland and she is not likely to do it free of charge (strictly speaking it's a conflict of interest if she were to notarize anything for me, that's why I use the bank instead).

    Although you don't have to appear in person, sometimes it might be convenient.

    I'm not saying they're right to say you have to appear in person, just offering a possible explanation
    But you can get your own Notary to attest to your sworn statement made under penalty of perjury, and it has the same power and acceptability as if the clerk swore at you before you signed the form.

    The only value I can see in taking the application form in to the clerk is it saves you another trip when you ask that the application be filed in the county records book (where you can prove when you did file in case there is some hanky-panky on the 45-day time limit).

    Speaking of which, it might be good practice to go down to the clerk's office and see if a) the order for issuing your permit is filed, and b) testing to see if your BFF can get the clerk to disclose info not allowed to be released.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  8. #8
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    print out and place before the clerk:

    http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/t...n18.2-308.010/

    Nowhere does it require the application to be made in person in front of the clerk. Ask them to cite the Code section that they think requires the applicant to submit the application in person.

    Be polite.

    http://corsinet.com/braincandy/hlife.html

    Only if you get stymied by the clerk should you be asking for someone to help you. First because it puts the clerk on notice that mere citizens know the law. Second, it establishes a baseline documenting the obstinacy of the clerk and where their legal interpretation comes from.

    stay safe.
    Skid, What my wife decided to do was to print off the Va statute and highlight the appropriate section about mail in renewals. She mailed her notarized application along with the highlighted copy to the circuit court. We are waiting to hear back from her before going any further. I have also been in contact with Phil Van Cleeve concerning this matter.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  9. #9
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    One thought I've had is that doesn't the application form have to be notarized? You can usually get the clerk to do that for you, and that could be why they're saying you have to appear in person, so they can notarize the form for you.

    Of course you can get any other Notary to do it for you, I go to the local branch of my bank for anything I need notarized. Last time I checked my wife's Notary Commission had not expired so she could always notarize for you, but you'd have to travel to Ashland and she is not likely to do it free of charge (strictly speaking it's a conflict of interest if she were to notarize anything for me, that's why I use the bank instead).

    Although you don't have to appear in person, sometimes it might be convenient.

    I'm not saying they're right to say you have to appear in person, just offering a possible explanation
    The clerks reasoning (more than likely Sheriff Ricky Walker's) is that it has been 5 years since my wife's last background check, and that is too long.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

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    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    The clerks reasoning (more than likely Sheriff Ricky Walker's) is that it has been 5 years since my wife's last background check, and that is too long.
    Fill out the application, have it notarized, enclose the check, mail it certified mail return receipt along with a photocopy of her current CHP. Then wait. Include a printout of the code section highlighted if you wish, but I wouldn't. Then wait to see what they do with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Banks and S & Ls where one has an account will usually notarize, professionally witness, your signature. Do not sign it before hand - sign only in front of the notary.

    Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.
    You do not need to include a copy of your old permit if it is a renewal. The application specifically says, "ATTACH A PHOTOCOPY OF THE DOCUMENTATION THAT DEMONSTRATES YOUR COMPETENCE WITH A HANDGUN (INITIAL PERMITS ONLY)." (Bold added.)

    Section 8M of the application asks if you currently hold a valid permit, and if so it asks for the circuit court that issued it and its expiration date. By law, they are not allowed to require anything beyond what is on the application. By law, proof of competence never expires, and so the mere fact that you hold a previous CHP (which they can look up in court records or in VCIN, using the provided information on the application) is sufficient. When I renewed in Fairfax, I did not provide them anything more than the notarized application and the money order, all by mail, and my renewal went through with no problem.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Above all, do not call them to ask questions unless you are recording the conversation. Let them refuse the application and mail it back. That way you can PROVE they received it and PROVE that they did not do what is required by law.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    Banks and S & Ls where one has an account will usually notarize, professionally witness, your signature. Do not sign it before hand - sign only in front of the notary.

    Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.
    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    You do not need to include a copy of your old permit if it is a renewal. The application specifically says, "ATTACH A PHOTOCOPY OF THE DOCUMENTATION THAT DEMONSTRATES YOUR COMPETENCE WITH A HANDGUN (INITIAL PERMITS ONLY)." (Bold added.)

    Section 8M of the application asks if you currently hold a valid permit, and if so it asks for the circuit court that issued it and its expiration date. By law, they are not allowed to require anything beyond what is on the application. By law, proof of competence never expires, and so the mere fact that you hold a previous CHP (which they can look up in court records or in VCIN, using the provided information on the application) is sufficient. When I renewed in Fairfax, I did not provide them anything more than the notarized application and the money order, all by mail, and my renewal went through with no problem.
    This has been thoroughly vented by several well known gun rights attorneys and all agreed that providing that documentation (old CHP) was very much in order. The old permit could even be 6 years expired.

    It should be noted that the VSP form for CHP is a product of that agency's attempt to acquire information permitted by law to facilitate the process. It is not a black letter law form/format
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It should be noted that the VSP form for CHP is a product of that agency's attempt to acquire information permitted by law to facilitate the process. It is not a black letter law form/format
    From 18.2-308.02 :
    The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.
    Looks to me like the code says the form provided by the state police is the final word on what is required....

    Roscoe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    This has been thoroughly vented by several well known gun rights attorneys and all agreed that providing that documentation (old CHP) was very much in order. The old permit could even be 6 years expired.

    It should be noted that the VSP form for CHP is a product of that agency's attempt to acquire information permitted by law to facilitate the process. It is not a black letter law form/format
    As cited above by roscoe, 18.2-308.02 requires the form created by the Virginia State Police, and prohibits requiring any information beyond what is listed on that form.

    The one gray area I see in there is that if the permit is expired, then you would no longer have a "VALID RESIDENT CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT ISSUED BY A VIRGINIA CIRCUIT COURT". At that point, you are making another "initial" application instead of a renewal, and need to provide proof of competence with a handgun as outlined in 18.2-308.02. Proof of having previously held a CHP is considered proof of competence under 18.2-308.02(B)(6): "Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause".

    As long as you currently hold a valid resident CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court, a clerk cannot require you to provide a copy of it as part of a renewal.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    As cited above by roscoe, 18.2-308.02 requires the form created by the Virginia State Police, and prohibits requiring any information beyond what is listed on that form.

    The one gray area I see in there is that if the permit is expired, then you would no longer have a "VALID RESIDENT CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT ISSUED BY A VIRGINIA CIRCUIT COURT". At that point, you are making another "initial" application instead of a renewal, and need to provide proof of competence with a handgun as outlined in 18.2-308.02. Proof of having previously held a CHP is considered proof of competence under 18.2-308.02(B)(6): "Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause".

    As long as you currently hold a valid resident CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court, a clerk cannot require you to provide a copy of it as part of a renewal.
    Not so. An expired permit is a "valid" permit - duly and properly issued. Such does not allow legal CC however, until the renewal permit is in hand.

    There is a record of testing this somewhere but I did not find the reference.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Above all, do not call them to ask questions unless you are recording the conversation. Let them refuse the application and mail it back. That way you can PROVE they received it and PROVE that they did not do what is required by law.

    Mike, she sent it with a requirement that the clerk sign for it. The only thing she didn't do was send a copy of her current permit.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not so. An expired permit is a "valid" permit - duly and properly issued. Such does not allow legal CC however, until the renewal permit is in hand.

    There is a record of testing this somewhere but I did not find the reference.
    Do you have a citation for that definition of "valid"?

    Once expired, a permit is no longer valid (i.e. recognized for its intended purpose), any more than an expired driver's license is valid for purposes of driving a vehicle on public roads. The expired permit is still proof of competence for purposes of applying for a CHP, but such an application would be handled as a new permit, not a renewal.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Do you have a citation for that definition of "valid"?


    Once expired, a permit is no longer valid (i.e. recognized for its intended purpose), any more than an expired driver's license is valid for purposes of driving a vehicle on public roads. The expired permit is still proof of competence for purposes of applying for a CHP, but such an application would be handled as a new permit, not a renewal.
    When a word or term is not defined by statute, then the dictionary meaning will be utilized. An expired CHP is "valid" because it is "legally binding due to having been executed in compliance with the law" and "legally or officially acceptable".

    In Virginia something not expressly forbiden is legal - nothing in our statutes says that a permit must be renewed when it is still active.

    Neither an expired DL nor an expired CHP is valid for purpose of being used to engage in the activity legally but it is valid for the purpose of demonstrating competence in the application process. Getting a current DL is a renewal process also - one need only update the required information, not take the physical driving and parking test again.

    Personally, I waited too long to submit my renewal application once. By the time it was processed and ready for signature it had expired - was w/o a CHP for several days. It was signed and issued w/o problem. There have been other stories of renewing expired permits over the years - none were asked to submit a new original app.

    You may argue semantics and give your opinion all you want, but it still stands that in Virginia acquiring a CHP with using an expired permit as part of the process is accepted w/o question by VSP and the clerks of court. I know of no instance - none - where that created a problem.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-27-2016 at 08:19 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When a word or term is not defined by statute, then the dictionary meaning will be utilized. An expired CHP is "valid" because it is "legally binding due to having been executed in compliance with the law" and "legally or officially acceptable".

    In Virginia something not expressly forbiden is legal - nothing in our statutes says that a permit must be renewed when it is still active.

    Neither an expired DL nor an expired CHP is valid for purpose of being used to engage in the activity legally but it is valid for the purpose of demonstrating competence in the application process. Getting a current DL is a renewal process also - one need only update the required information, not take the physical driving and parking test again.
    Grape, you are missing my point completely. Having previously held a CHP issued in Virginia is expressly defined in law as proof of competence in 18.2-308.02(B)(6). If your permit is expired, then you are submitting a new initial application instead of a renewal, but the previous CHP counts as proof of competence instead of having to present some other proof of training.

    As user has pointed out many times, words are not superfluous in law or legal documents. Each word is expected to add meaning. To use your definition for "valid" would make that word superfluous in the question on the application. The circuit courts don't issue invalid permits, so asking if you have a valid permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, instead of asking if you have a permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, must have a distinct meaning. "Valid" as being "executed in compliance with the law" doesn't provide that. "Legally or officially acceptable" only fits that if the permit is unexpired.

    In short, if your permit is currently unexpired, there is no requirement in law that you submit a copy of your current permit as part of the renewal process, as per the VSP application, and a circuit court cannot require you to provide it. You can only be required to submit a copy if your previous permit is expired, at which point the copy of the permit fulfills the requirement for demonstration of competence in 18.2-308.02(B).
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 02-28-2016 at 12:30 PM.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    The clerks reasoning (more than likely Sheriff Ricky Walker's) is that it has been 5 years since my wife's last background check, and that is too long.
    In that case it is possible, although not definite, that someone bears resemblance to the south end of a north facing equine creature
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Grape, you are missing my point completely. Having previously held a CHP issued in Virginia is expressly defined in law as proof of competence in 18.2-308.02(B)(6). If your permit is expired, then you are submitting a new initial application instead of a renewal, but the previous CHP counts as proof of competence instead of having to present some other proof of training.

    As user has pointed out many times, words are not superfluous in law or legal documents. Each word is expected to add meaning. To use your definition for "valid" would make that word superfluous in the question on the application. The circuit courts don't issue invalid permits, so asking if you have a valid permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, instead of asking if you have a permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, must have a distinct meaning. "Valid" as being "executed in compliance with the law" doesn't provide that. "Legally or officially acceptable" only fits that if the permit is unexpired.

    In short, if your permit is currently unexpired, there is no requirement in law that you submit a copy of your current permit as part of the renewal process, as per the VSP application, and a circuit court cannot require you to provide it. You can only be required to submit a copy if your previous permit is expired, at which point the copy of the permit fulfills the requirement for demonstration of competence in 18.2-308.02(B).
    Nope not missing your point at all - it just doesn't satisfy.

    The question of providing a copy of one's CHP (expired or not) was put to the Legal Action Committee of which User (Dan Hawes) and Mike Stollenwerk are members. My clear recollection is that the answer was "yes", either provides proof of training. I will take their guidance above your opinion - no slight intended.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ETA: The content of this post has nothing to do with training, merely the question of whether an expired permit allows for renewal, vice a first-time application. - TFred

    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Grape, you are missing my point completely. Having previously held a CHP issued in Virginia is expressly defined in law as proof of competence in 18.2-308.02(B)(6). If your permit is expired, then you are submitting a new initial application instead of a renewal, but the previous CHP counts as proof of competence instead of having to present some other proof of training.
    Begging your pardon, the statement in bold is indisputably incorrect. There is absolutely no way to interpret the code to support it.

    From 18.2-308.10, we have these first paragraphs:

    18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

    A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

    2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

    Please note the several bolded sections in the code:

    1. Note NO mention of whether the previously held permit is still in force. You might have a valid point, IF the code spoke to the current status of the permit being valid at the time of renewal, but it does not, it only states "previously held", which can obviously be anytime from yesterday, to the very first permit ever issued by Virginia.

    2. Again note, "who previously have been issued," with NO disqualifier related to the current status of the permit.

    3. Finally, Paragraph 2, by giving direction regarding a previously held permit that has not YET expired, clearly implies that the code is aware of the fact that some previously held permits will have expired coming into this renewal process. In simple terms, if the law required one to hold a currently valid permit to run down the renewal process (this entire section of code), Paragraph 2 would not need to have any language specifying this option only for permits that are still valid. As you pointed out in an earlier post, there are no superfluous words in the law, so that means the requirement that the permit be still in force to exercise the Paragraph 2 option is distinct from renewing permits that are no longer in force.

    There really just isn't any other way to go on this one.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 02-28-2016 at 06:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ETA: The content of this post has nothing to do with training, merely the question of whether an expired permit allows for renewal, vice a first-time application. - TFred


    Begging your pardon, the statement in bold is indisputably incorrect. There is absolutely no way to interpret the code to support it.

    From 18.2-308.10, we have these first paragraphs:

    18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

    A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

    2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

    Please note the several bolded sections in the code:

    1. Note NO mention of whether the previously held permit is still in force. You might have a valid point, IF the code spoke to the current status of the permit being valid at the time of renewal, but it does not, it only states "previously held", which can obviously be anytime from yesterday, to the very first permit ever issued by Virginia.

    2. Again note, "who previously have been issued," with NO disqualifier related to the current status of the permit.

    3. Finally, Paragraph 2, by giving direction regarding a previously held permit that has not YET expired, clearly implies that the code is aware of the fact that some previously held permits will have expired coming into this renewal process. In simple terms, if the law required one to hold a currently valid permit to run down the renewal process (this entire section of code), Paragraph 2 would not need to have any language specifying this option only for permits that are still valid. As you pointed out in an earlier post, there are no superfluous words in the law, so that means the requirement that the permit be still in force to exercise the Paragraph 2 option is distinct from renewing permits that are no longer in force.

    There really just isn't any other way to go on this one.

    TFred
    First of all, you will note that in my previous posts, I explicitly referred to the case of an expired permit as a "gray area". This is one of those areas where later amendments to the law have added some confusion. When the code was amended to allow renewal by mail, they made it so that anyone who has previously held a permit could submit it by mail, without any limitations. However, that did not change the portions of the law now found in 18.2-308.02 (after the reorganization of the sections a couple years ago) that 1) explicitly stated that clerks could not require anything not on the application created by the Virginia State Police, and 2) that an expired permit satisfies the demonstration of competence requirement.

    Per the application, only "initial permits" (a term not defined in law or on the form) are required to attach proof of competence. It's right there in plain English in section 8M of the form. As clerks are prohibited from requiring anything beyond what is on the form (per 18.2-308.02(A)), they are prohibited from requiring demonstration of competence unless it is an "initial permit" (which a renewal is not under any reasonable definition).

    Which goes right back to my point that Grapeshot keeps missing: There is no legal requirement to supply a copy of your old permit when submitting a renewal. The form only requires that you supply the circuit court where it was issued and the expiration date of the permit. You can voluntarily supply a copy of the permit, just like you can voluntarily comply with any other extralegal "requirements" (such as Fairfax County's request for a SASE), but you cannot be required to provide it.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    First of all, you will note that in my previous posts, I explicitly referred to the case of an expired permit as a "gray area". This is one of those areas where later amendments to the law have added some confusion. When the code was amended to allow renewal by mail, they made it so that anyone who has previously held a permit could submit it by mail, without any limitations. However, that did not change the portions of the law now found in 18.2-308.02 (after the reorganization of the sections a couple years ago) that 1) explicitly stated that clerks could not require anything not on the application created by the Virginia State Police, and 2) that an expired permit satisfies the demonstration of competence requirement.

    Per the application, only "initial permits" (a term not defined in law or on the form) are required to attach proof of competence. It's right there in plain English in section 8M of the form. As clerks are prohibited from requiring anything beyond what is on the form (per 18.2-308.02(A)), they are prohibited from requiring demonstration of competence unless it is an "initial permit" (which a renewal is not under any reasonable definition).

    Which goes right back to my point that Grapeshot keeps missing: There is no legal requirement to supply a copy of your old permit when submitting a renewal. The form only requires that you supply the circuit court where it was issued and the expiration date of the permit. You can voluntarily supply a copy of the permit, just like you can voluntarily comply with any other extralegal "requirements" (such as Fairfax County's request for a SASE), but you cannot be required to provide it.
    Again - I miss nothing in your replies or references.

    Your personal interpretation/read of the law does not carry more weight than that of the previously mentioned LAC (legal action committee, all attorneys) of VCDL.

    Don't provide the documentation - your choice. Hope it goes through for you, but even then such can't be presented as proof that it should not have been required.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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