Amelia County is At It Again!

scouser · Feb 28, 2016

celticredneck said:
The clerks reasoning (more than likely Sheriff Ricky Walker's) is that it has been 5 years since my wife's last background check, and that is too long.

In that case it is possible, although not definite, that someone bears resemblance to the south end of a north facing equine creature

Grapeshot · Feb 28, 2016

grylnsmn said:
Grape, you are missing my point completely. Having previously held a CHP issued in Virginia is expressly defined in law as proof of competence in 18.2-308.02(B)(6). If your permit is expired, then you are submitting a new initial application instead of a renewal, but the previous CHP counts as proof of competence instead of having to present some other proof of training.

As user has pointed out many times, words are not superfluous in law or legal documents. Each word is expected to add meaning. To use your definition for "valid" would make that word superfluous in the question on the application. The circuit courts don't issue invalid permits, so asking if you have a valid permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, instead of asking if you have a permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, must have a distinct meaning. "Valid" as being "executed in compliance with the law" doesn't provide that. "Legally or officially acceptable" only fits that if the permit is unexpired.

In short, if your permit is currently unexpired, there is no requirement in law that you submit a copy of your current permit as part of the renewal process, as per the VSP application, and a circuit court cannot require you to provide it. You can only be required to submit a copy if your previous permit is expired, at which point the copy of the permit fulfills the requirement for demonstration of competence in 18.2-308.02(B).

Nope not missing your point at all - it just doesn't satisfy.

The question of providing a copy of one's CHP (expired or not) was put to the Legal Action Committee of which User (Dan Hawes) and Mike Stollenwerk are members. My clear recollection is that the answer was "yes", either provides proof of training. I will take their guidance above your opinion - no slight intended.

TFred · Feb 28, 2016

ETA: The content of this post has nothing to do with training, merely the question of whether an expired permit allows for renewal, vice a first-time application. - TFred

grylnsmn said:
Grape, you are missing my point completely. Having previously held a CHP issued in Virginia is expressly defined in law as proof of competence in 18.2-308.02(B)(6). If your permit is expired, then you are submitting a new initial application instead of a renewal, but the previous CHP counts as proof of competence instead of having to present some other proof of training.

Begging your pardon, the statement in bold is indisputably incorrect. There is absolutely no way to interpret the code to support it.

From 18.2-308.10, we have these first paragraphs:

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

Please note the several bolded sections in the code:

1. Note NO mention of whether the previously held permit is still in force. You might have a valid point, IF the code spoke to the current status of the permit being valid at the time of renewal, but it does not, it only states "previously held", which can obviously be anytime from yesterday, to the very first permit ever issued by Virginia.

2. Again note, "who previously have been issued," with NO disqualifier related to the current status of the permit.

3. Finally, Paragraph 2, by giving direction regarding a previously held permit that has not YET expired, clearly implies that the code is aware of the fact that some previously held permits will have expired coming into this renewal process. In simple terms, if the law required one to hold a currently valid permit to run down the renewal process (this entire section of code), Paragraph 2 would not need to have any language specifying this option only for permits that are still valid. As you pointed out in an earlier post, there are no superfluous words in the law, so that means the requirement that the permit be still in force to exercise the Paragraph 2 option is distinct from renewing permits that are no longer in force.

There really just isn't any other way to go on this one.

TFred

grylnsmn · Feb 29, 2016

TFred said:
ETA: The content of this post has nothing to do with training, merely the question of whether an expired permit allows for renewal, vice a first-time application. - TFred

Begging your pardon, the statement in bold is indisputably incorrect. There is absolutely no way to interpret the code to support it.

From 18.2-308.10, we have these first paragraphs:

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

Please note the several bolded sections in the code:

1. Note NO mention of whether the previously held permit is still in force. You might have a valid point, IF the code spoke to the current status of the permit being valid at the time of renewal, but it does not, it only states "previously held", which can obviously be anytime from yesterday, to the very first permit ever issued by Virginia.

2. Again note, "who previously have been issued," with NO disqualifier related to the current status of the permit.

3. Finally, Paragraph 2, by giving direction regarding a previously held permit that has not YET expired, clearly implies that the code is aware of the fact that some previously held permits will have expired coming into this renewal process. In simple terms, if the law required one to hold a currently valid permit to run down the renewal process (this entire section of code), Paragraph 2 would not need to have any language specifying this option only for permits that are still valid. As you pointed out in an earlier post, there are no superfluous words in the law, so that means the requirement that the permit be still in force to exercise the Paragraph 2 option is distinct from renewing permits that are no longer in force.

There really just isn't any other way to go on this one.

TFred

First of all, you will note that in my previous posts, I explicitly referred to the case of an expired permit as a "gray area". This is one of those areas where later amendments to the law have added some confusion. When the code was amended to allow renewal by mail, they made it so that anyone who has previously held a permit could submit it by mail, without any limitations. However, that did not change the portions of the law now found in 18.2-308.02 (after the reorganization of the sections a couple years ago) that 1) explicitly stated that clerks could not require anything not on the application created by the Virginia State Police, and 2) that an expired permit satisfies the demonstration of competence requirement.

Per the application, only "initial permits" (a term not defined in law or on the form) are required to attach proof of competence. It's right there in plain English in section 8M of the form. As clerks are prohibited from requiring anything beyond what is on the form (per 18.2-308.02(A)), they are prohibited from requiring demonstration of competence unless it is an "initial permit" (which a renewal is not under any reasonable definition).

Which goes right back to my point that Grapeshot keeps missing: There is no legal requirement to supply a copy of your old permit when submitting a renewal. The form only requires that you supply the circuit court where it was issued and the expiration date of the permit. You can voluntarily supply a copy of the permit, just like you can voluntarily comply with any other extralegal "requirements" (such as Fairfax County's request for a SASE), but you cannot be required to provide it.

Grapeshot · Feb 29, 2016

grylnsmn said:
First of all, you will note that in my previous posts, I explicitly referred to the case of an expired permit as a "gray area". This is one of those areas where later amendments to the law have added some confusion. When the code was amended to allow renewal by mail, they made it so that anyone who has previously held a permit could submit it by mail, without any limitations. However, that did not change the portions of the law now found in 18.2-308.02 (after the reorganization of the sections a couple years ago) that 1) explicitly stated that clerks could not require anything not on the application created by the Virginia State Police, and 2) that an expired permit satisfies the demonstration of competence requirement.

Per the application, only "initial permits" (a term not defined in law or on the form) are required to attach proof of competence. It's right there in plain English in section 8M of the form. As clerks are prohibited from requiring anything beyond what is on the form (per 18.2-308.02(A)), they are prohibited from requiring demonstration of competence unless it is an "initial permit" (which a renewal is not under any reasonable definition).

Which goes right back to my point that Grapeshot keeps missing: There is no legal requirement to supply a copy of your old permit when submitting a renewal. The form only requires that you supply the circuit court where it was issued and the expiration date of the permit. You can voluntarily supply a copy of the permit, just like you can voluntarily comply with any other extralegal "requirements" (such as Fairfax County's request for a SASE), but you cannot be required to provide it.

Again - I miss nothing in your replies or references.

Your personal interpretation/read of the law does not carry more weight than that of the previously mentioned LAC (legal action committee, all attorneys) of VCDL.

Don't provide the documentation - your choice. Hope it goes through for you, but even then such can't be presented as proof that it should not have been required.

Tess · Feb 29, 2016

Grapeshot said:
Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.

Why?

The application asks if you have a current permit, and if so, which court issued it. It doesn't ask for the case number, and I wouldn't mind if it did, but it doesn't.
Then you sign the application under penalty of perjury.
Why is that not proof of training? Especially if it's the same court. They have a record of it.

I don't see where the copy can be required.

grylnsmn · Mar 1, 2016

Tess said:
Why?

The application asks if you have a current permit, and if so, which court issued it. It doesn't ask for the case number, and I wouldn't mind if it did, but it doesn't.
Then you sign the application under penalty of perjury.
Why is that not proof of training? Especially if it's the same court. They have a record of it.

I don't see where the copy can be required.

Exactly.

Grapeshot,

The law (18.2-308.02(A))prohibits a clerk from requiring anything not on the application created by the VSP:

No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

The permit application states:

ATTACH A PHOTOCOPY OF THE DOCUMENTATION THAT DEMONSTRATES YOUR COMPETENCE WITH A HANDGUN (INITIAL PERMITS ONLY)

As it is on the application (click to enlarge):

That is rather explicit that attaching a copy of the documentation of your competence with a handgun is required for initial permits only.

Is a renewal an initial permit? By what definition can you claim that? If a renewal is not an initial permit, then by what authority can a clerk request or require documentation not allowed on the application?

Again, there is nothing that prohibits you from voluntarily providing a copy of your previous permit, but it is an extralegal request, and it should be recognized as such.

You can repeat over and over that the LAC of VCDL says you need to provide it, but that isn't actually a citation to legal authority. What specifically in the law gives clerks the authority to require a copy of the old permit? Until you have answered that, you haven't actually provided a citation.

Grapeshot · Mar 1, 2016

grylnsmn said:
--snipped--

The law (18.2-308.02(A))prohibits a clerk from requiring anything not on the application created by the VSP:The permit application states:As it is on the application (click to enlarge):View attachment 13008

That is rather explicit that attaching a copy of the documentation of your competence with a handgun is required for initial permits only.

The application "created by VSP" is not what prohibits or allows a clerk to make determinations of requirements. That is determined by what the black letter law stipulates. You put the shoe on the wrong foot.

I understand your reasoning as found in 18.2-308.02(B) "no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:"

My point being I am not submitting "additional demonstration of competence". I am demonstrating that I have already done that.

My first application to carry concealed goes back to the day when the permit was a CWP (concealed weapons permit), pre 1989 if I remember correctly. That and we were not required to apply in the juristiction in which we lived - I think I first went through a very friendly court/judge in Ashland. Where is that file/documentation? I have no clue.

If it helps to ease your pain, I will agree to stipulate that my renewal application is my initial renewal.....it is not a resubmission or second attempt.

You do what you believe is proper and I likewise will proceed with my best interpertation and advice. ymmv

That is all I have to say on the matter.

grylnsmn · Mar 2, 2016

Grapeshot said:
The application "created by VSP" is not what prohibits or allows a clerk to make determinations of requirements. That is determined by what the black letter law stipulates. You put the shoe on the wrong foot.

I understand your reasoning as found in 18.2-308.02(B) "no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:"

My point being I am not submitting "additional demonstration of competence". I am demonstrating that I have already done that.

My first application to carry concealed goes back to the day when the permit was a CWP (concealed weapons permit), pre 1989 if I remember correctly. That and we were not required to apply in the juristiction in which we lived - I think I first went through a very friendly court/judge in Ashland. Where is that file/documentation? I have no clue.

If it helps to ease your pain, I will agree to stipulate that my renewal application is my initial renewal.....it is not a resubmission or second attempt.

You do what you believe is proper and I likewise will proceed with my best interpertation and advice. ymmv

That is all I have to say on the matter.

If you want to get hyper technical (not that anyone around here ever does that), assuming you haven't applied for a CHP since you held the old CWP, then an application today for a CHP would be an initial application, and not a renewal (as the renewal language in 18.2-308.010 only applies to CHPs, not CWPs). At that point, your old CWP would satisfy 18.2-308.02(B)(6) for purposes of applying for a CHP.

If you have been issued a CHP since you held the CWP, then your citing your CWP is irrelevant. Clerks cannot require you to provide a copy of your previous CHP, although you are free to do so voluntarily.

My only point of contention with your position is that you keep claiming that clerks can require the copy of the old CHP, when there is nothing in the law that specifically authorizes that.

Grapeshot · Mar 2, 2016

grylnsmn said:
If you want to get hyper technical (not that anyone around here ever does that), assuming you haven't applied for a CHP since you held the old CWP, then an application today for a CHP would be an initial application, and not a renewal (as the renewal language in 18.2-308.010 only applies to CHPs, not CWPs). At that point, your old CWP would satisfy 18.2-308.02(B)(6) for purposes of applying for a CHP.

If you have been issued a CHP since you held the CWP, then your citing your CWP is irrelevant. Clerks cannot require you to provide a copy of your previous CHP, although you are free to do so voluntarily.

My only point of contention with your position is that you keep claiming that clerks can require the copy of the old CHP, when there is nothing in the law that specifically authorizes that.

Demonstrate please by renewing a Va resident CHP. Can't do that? Oh well. Generally, opinions are worth what you pay for them these days.

BTW - I have held a Va permit continuously since my first CWP, except for the aforementioned lapse of a few days. The CWP became a CHP upon renewal w/o initiating any special action - the law had changed.

grylnsmn · Mar 2, 2016

Grapeshot said:
Demonstrate please by renewing a Va resident CHP. Can't do that? Oh well. Generally, opinions are worth what you pay for them these days.

I did, 2 1/2 years ago, the day after I hit 180 days until my previous permit would expire. In fact, my Virginia resident permit is valid for another 3 years. (I only left Virginia for my new job 2 months ago.)

And my renewal was in Fairfax County, which is notorious for extralegal restrictions. I provided them only with the notarized application and a USPS money order for the application fee. I provided no copy of my previous permit, no triplicate application, and no SASE. They processed my renewal with absolutely no problems, and I received my new permit about 2 weeks later.

Grapeshot · Mar 2, 2016

grylnsmn said:
I did, 2 1/2 years ago, the day after I hit 180 days until my previous permit would expire. In fact, my Virginia resident permit is valid for another 3 years. (I only left Virginia for my new job 2 months ago.)

And my renewal was in Fairfax County, which is notorious for extralegal restrictions. I provided them only with the notarized application and a USPS money order for the application fee. I provided no copy of my previous permit, no triplicate application, and no SASE. They processed my renewal with absolutely no problems, and I received my new permit about 2 weeks later.

'Xcuse please, while I wipe the egg off my face. I did leave the door open for that didn't I. :lol:

celticredneck · Mar 3, 2016

My wife's application for CHP renewal was returned to day with a handwritten sticky note attached to the returned application with the following requests:
"This page (A background check form from the Amelia sheriff's office) must be filled and and notarized."
"Also need copy of current permit"
"Also need all 4 pages of document"
My wife did not include the pages she wasn't required to fill out. She has no problem complying with the second and third requests, but the first one is an extra form, which I do not believe is required by state state statutes.

Grapeshot · Mar 3, 2016

celticredneck said:
My wife's application for CHP renewal was returned to day with a handwritten sticky note attached to the returned application with the following requests:
"This page (A background check form from the Amelia sheriff's office) must be filled and and notarized."
"Also need copy of current permit"
"Also need all 4 pages of document"
My wife did not include the pages she wasn't required to fill out. She has no problem complying with the second and third requests, but the first one is an extra form, which I do not believe is required by state state statutes.

Numbers 1 and 3 are extra legal, not statutorily required. They can make as many copies as the need for their internal procedures.

IMO number 2 is valid.

TFred · Mar 3, 2016

celticredneck said:
My wife's application for CHP renewal was returned to day with a handwritten sticky note attached to the returned application with the following requests:
"This page (A background check form from the Amelia sheriff's office) must be filled and and notarized."
"Also need copy of current permit"
"Also need all 4 pages of document"
My wife did not include the pages she wasn't required to fill out. She has no problem complying with the second and third requests, but the first one is an extra form, which I do not believe is required by state state statutes.

This is why all the legal eagles advise you to get a dated stamp of receipt when you deliver your application.

Then, upon receiving such ridiculous (and actually ILLEGAL) responses such as this, you can write back (filling in the proper dates, of course),

"Dear Sir or Madam, I have in my possession the dated receipt indicating you accepted my application on MMM DD, 2016, which was fully completed in accordance with Section 18.2-308.02 of the Code of Virginia. This letter serves to remind you that the 45 day period during which you are required to issue my permit expires on MMM DD, 2016. If you do not issue my permit by that date, then I expect you to follow the direction found in Section 18.2-308.05 of the Code of Virginia regarding the issuance of a de facto permit, until such a time as you either issue my final permit (within 90 additional days), or inform me that my application has been denied for one of the reasons outlined in Section 18.2-308.09 of the Code of Virginia. Thank you for your attention to this matter."

TFred

skidmark · Mar 3, 2016

celticredneck said:
My wife's application for CHP renewal was returned to day with a handwritten sticky note attached to the returned application with the following requests:
"This page (A background check form from the Amelia sheriff's office) must be filled and and notarized."
"Also need copy of current permit"
"Also need all 4 pages of document"
My wife did not include the pages she wasn't required to fill out. She has no problem complying with the second and third requests, but the first one is an extra form, which I do not believe is required by state state statutes.

When did it become the responsibility of the applicant to deliver to, and retrieve the background check iin order to present it to the clerk?

Would asking the LEA to complete the background check form incur a charge in addition to the $50 paid to the clerk to cover that, among other, costs?

I'm thinking Denmark and olfactory nerves here.

stay safe.

Tess · Mar 3, 2016

celticredneck said:
My wife's application for CHP renewal was returned to day with a handwritten sticky note attached to the returned application with the following requests:
"This page (A background check form from the Amelia sheriff's office) must be filled and and notarized."
"Also need copy of current permit"
"Also need all 4 pages of document"
My wife did not include the pages she wasn't required to fill out. She has no problem complying with the second and third requests, but the first one is an extra form, which I do not believe is required by state state statutes.

I was turned down in Fairfax County for failing to provide a copy of my current permit.

A few calls to the Clerk's Office - talking to the person responsible, not to the Clerk, who was notoriously UNhelpful via email - got it resolved. She told me it was "easier" if I provided it. Sorry, but my role is not to make your job "easier". I try not to make it harder, either. I pointed out to her that I had signed the affidavit under penalty of perjury, and that it was the same freaking court (I didn't use those words, but I think she could read my tone of voice), and I got my permit a few days later.

Clerk Frey was absolutely no help at all. PLUS, he spoke about it with another individual who decided it was his business to "help". I was livid over that.

celticredneck · Mar 4, 2016

skidmark said:
When did it become the responsibility of the applicant to deliver to, and retrieve the background check iin order to present it to the clerk?

Would asking the LEA to complete the background check form incur a charge in addition to the $50 paid to the clerk to cover that, among other, costs?

I'm thinking Denmark and olfactory nerves here.

stay safe.

Skid, the only thing Amelia county has going for it in their permit procedures is that they do not charge any fee other than for the background check.

celticredneck · Mar 23, 2016

Latest update. The county cashed my wife's check, so I expect her permit in the mail sometime soon She "Did Not" fill out the sheriff's background form. My permit is up for renewal in 2018. If I am still around, I'll see if they try tp pull the same bull on me.( or hopefully Va will be a right to carry state by then) Thanks to everyone for all of the suggestions and support

Amelia County is At It Again!

scouser

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TFred

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Tess

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