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Would it be legal to sign away your rights to a corporation?

color of law

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My friend, I am telling you what the law is, not political theory.

You technically have a contract of employment as an at will employee. It is terminable by either party for any reason, or for no reason at all, with a few rather clearly defined exceptions. Guns and dope are not among them.

You can work under a contract without an employment relationship. If there is no fixed term, your contract will likely also be considered "at will." If that is the case, the person you contract with can dismiss you just as unceremoneously. You will be self employed for workers comp, tax, wage and hours, liability, and other purposes. Most people have less rights and benefits that way, but if your services are in particular demand, and a good negotiator, it is possible that you may be able to make up for that. Most workers are not so blessed. In certain situations, the government will not allow a business to treat you as a contractor, only an employee. That is to protect you against getting ripped off and exploited by your employer.

Not judging -- that is the black letter law.
First off your premise that's the law versus political theory demonstrates your ignorance. The constitution doesn't allow states to interfere with contracts, only interpret their terms in a dispute.
"At will" is not a contract. "At will" is based on statutory law because a contract does not exist. And without a contract the law assumes (pretends) there is an employer employee relationship. Contracts set their own terms and conditions, and defines those terms and conditions.

Secondly, it is not a contract if there is not some fixed terms and conditions. Contracts require a beginning and ending. In other words a contract cannot be perpetual. "At will" has a beginning but no set ending, hence not a contract.

Lastly, you have been conditioned to exist in this world (put food on the table) by having to enter into an employer employee relationship. Not true. What I wrote was about contracting. Because contracting does not have to involve an assumed employer employee relationship. These types of private contracts are entered into everyday. And because they are private neither you nor the gov. know they even exist.

And I'm talking from experience. Just say'n.....
 

Freedom1Man

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If the tasks were performed to the employers satisfaction without any debits for equipment or damages then you should be paid the agreed upon $400. But bear in mind we are talking about what the employer pays you and not what the government takes from you in taxes. Those taxes have nothing to do with your employer and your complaint would be with the government.

A person is NOT denied work but is given the choice to either agree to the conditions of employment or to seek employment elsewhere where the person likes the conditions of employment. No one is denying anyone any work... just providing work according to the employee agreeing to the conditions of employment.

A person is NOT fired for exercising their rights. The person is fired for not adhering to the conditions of employment that they agreed to when they accepted employment.

The reason we cannot refuse to hire or fire due to race, religion, gender, etc., is because the government imposed laws that infringe upon the property owner's private property rights. Bear in mind that a business most certainly IS private property.
There are no laws requiring any taxes to withheld from earnings.

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sudden valley gunner

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You and your potential employer have the right to negotiate the terms of your employment, and you have the right to accept or reject any term(s). You both also have the right to negotiate any modifications of the originally proposed terms. Neither has the right to force you to negotiate or to not negotiate.

If you do not like the terms you can reject them and find employment elsewhere. It's your call.

stay safe.

Well said.
 

The Donkey

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First off your premise that's the law versus political theory demonstrates your ignorance. The constitution doesn't allow states to interfere with contracts, only interpret their terms in a dispute.
"At will" is not a contract. "At will" is based on statutory law because a contract does not exist. And without a contract the law assumes (pretends) there is an employer employee relationship. Contracts set their own terms and conditions, and defines those terms and conditions.

Secondly, it is not a contract if there is not some fixed terms and conditions. Contracts require a beginning and ending. In other words a contract cannot be perpetual. "At will" has a beginning but no set ending, hence not a contract.

Lastly, you have been conditioned to exist in this world (put food on the table) by having to enter into an employer employee relationship. Not true. What I wrote was about contracting. Because contracting does not have to involve an assumed employer employee relationship. These types of private contracts are entered into everyday. And because they are private neither you nor the gov. know they even exist.

And I'm talking from experience. Just say'n.....

And I'm talking as an employment lawyer with over 20 years' experience. Just say'n.

But in no sense am I offering you legal advice. Perhaps there is a state I have not heard of yet in which the law is different.

I would guess, however, that it is a state of mind.
 
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color of law

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And I'm talking as an employment lawyer with over 20 years' experience. Just say'n.
So as an attorney you live in a world of employer employee relationships and any agreements or contracts dealing in the world of employer employee relationships. Thank you for revealing that. Of course I made it clear I was not addressing that world. As you well know there are many other ways to privately do business and that is what I talking about. Two different worlds Just say'n.

But in no sense am I offering you legal advice. Perhaps there is a state I have not heard of yet in which the law is different.
As to the first sentence, I would expect no less. And as to your second sentence, what law, employment law as it relates to employer employee relationships or contract law not dealing with employer employee relationships?

I would guess, however, that it is a state of mind.
Lets not forget the state of confusion.
 

The Donkey

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Perhaps this will help:

Both an employer-employee relationship and an independent contractor/personal services contract relationships create contracts that are privately enforceable at common law. They also may create statutory rights and duties. The kind of rights and duties they create differ from each other.

Whether a particular relationship is an employment relationship or an independent contractor relationship is generally a fact based inquiry that revolves around similar legal "tests" but can differ a bit depending on the kind of laws you are concerned about. For example, determining whether there is an employment relationship for the purposes of who has to pay if someone is injured, and whether what must be paid includes damages for "pain and suffering" could be different from the laws determining whether one is an employee for minimum wage or maximum hours purposes.

The nature of the relationship does not depend solely on what you and the person you are contracting with decide that it is, or whether you have a written contract that says it is "employment" or that you are an "independent contractor." To help you figure out what your rights are, a judge/lawyer would need to know more.
 

nonameisgood

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When the massive increase in workplace drug testing was implemented in the 80s, an employer was only permitted to do such testing in certain jobs. There had to be a reason (usually safety) that could be a reasonable basis for testing. The issue was impairment, not some odd bigotry about who does what. I'm. It sure when and how the rules changed, but I predict they will change again.

An employer should not have any ability to restrict what employees do outside of work. That said, if someone made my business look bad in the eyes of the public, I'd like to be able to address that. I'm not sure it's so cut and dried as "I demand that you not do X in exchange for employment." It would be reasonable to challenge things unrelated to the job and expect to win.

My current employer has a drug testing program and the question already has arisen about use of drugs off the clock, with the answer that if it is legal and doesn't interfere with performance of the job, it is probably permitted.


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The Donkey

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It would be reasonable to challenge things unrelated to the job and expect to win.

My current employer has a drug testing program and the question already has arisen about use of drugs off the clock, with the answer that if it is legal and doesn't interfere with performance of the job, it is probably permitted.

What is reasonable does not generally matter in itself in employment law. If you do not want an employer to be able to fire you for any reason or for no reason at all -- which is the general rule -- you usually need: 1) a statutory right, requiring action by a legislature; 2) a contractual right, usually requiring a collective bargaining agreement; 3) a constitutional right, usually requiring you to be a government employee.

Of course, in general, your employer can permit you to do whatever it wants to allow you to do off the job, and can also change his/her mind in an instant if he/she wants.

But notice how often I say "generally" and "usually." There are exceptions to all of this. Moreover, things can get especially messy because people often disagree about the reasons why someone gets fired. Fired employees frequently are more inclined to believe that the real reasons are the unlawful ones, while employers contend that they are not.
 
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beebobby

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In a "right to work "state, is a reason for firing even required?
 
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solus

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In a "right to work "state, is a reason for firing even required?

unless it is an egregious violation of their policies, most do a paper trail to justify the firing as well as to keep from paying unemployment or civil suits.

ipse
 

color of law

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Perhaps this will help:

Both an employer-employee relationship and an independent contractor/personal services contract relationships create contracts that are privately enforceable at common law. They also may create statutory rights and duties. The kind of rights and duties they create differ from each other.

Whether a particular relationship is an employment relationship or an independent contractor relationship is generally a fact based inquiry that revolves around similar legal "tests" but can differ a bit depending on the kind of laws you are concerned about. For example, determining whether there is an employment relationship for the purposes of who has to pay if someone is injured, and whether what must be paid includes damages for "pain and suffering" could be different from the laws determining whether one is an employee for minimum wage or maximum hours purposes.

The nature of the relationship does not depend solely on what you and the person you are contracting with decide that it is, or whether you have a written contract that says it is "employment" or that you are an "independent contractor." To help you figure out what your rights are, a judge/lawyer would need to know more.
We are on two different planets. I am not referring to any type of employer employee relationships, including independent contractors or any such type of relationship known by any other name.

All I'm pointing out is there are other ways to skin a cat. And I totally understand that 99% of workers function in your world.

Nothing further to discuss....
 

color of law

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unless it is an egregious violation of their policies, most do a paper trail to justify the firing as well as to keep from paying unemployment or civil suits.

ipse
I actually have found the opposite. Usually no paperwork, or what little paperwork there is, it usually failed to contain the proper information to justify discharge, unemployment law wise. Many discharges were done contrary the written company policy or their employee handbook. Most discharges are done out of haste.
 

utbagpiper

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In a "right to work "state, is a reason for firing even required?

In theory no.

In practice, employers may need to defend against a discrimination claim especially if the (former) employee is a member of any protected class.

Blatant violation of company policy makes that easy. "S/He was dismissed for using company computers to view pornography in clear violation of company policies as contained in employee handbook and in the required annual employee training that S/He had completed for the 3rd time just 3 months prior to our discovering the porn on the company computer." Even here, a company needs to make sure they are consistent. If the last 3 guys with porn didn't get fired, probably a bad idea to make the first termination someone in a protected category.

If a general downsizing takes place, large companies will go to pains to make sure that the group of employees let go were let go based on objective measures of job performance, seniority, skill set, etc, and that statistically they do not present as any protected class. IE, you avoid laying off all the older workers, or a disproportionate number of female or minority workers, etc.

The larger the company, the deeper the pockets, the bigger the risk of a discrimination lawsuit, partly because of the increased odds such a company will offer at least a modest settlement as being cheaper than defending against the charge and having bad publicity. OTOH, some companies may be big enough to be technically subject to anti-discrimination laws, but for practical intents and purposes, may effective be "judgment proof" in the sense that the company can't afford to offer a big enough settlement to make it worthwhile for a lawyer to take the case on contingency, and even if you win, blood from a turnip kind of thing.

Charles
 

MAC702

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In a "right to work "state, is a reason for firing even required?

Negative. Indeed, if a reason is given, it can sometimes be used to bit them in the ass, so often no reason is given unless it's something that can't be turned around. The terminate employee would only have recourse if he could prove it was for violation of a civil right.
 
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beebobby

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Seems that "right to work" is a bit of a misnomer. Should be "right to be fired ". Companies must love that legislation. Workers, not so much.
 

MAC702

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Seems that "right to work" is a bit of a misnomer. Should be "right to be fired ". Companies must love that legislation. Workers, not so much.

It does seem a misnomer, but stems from its intent to limit the power of unions to require membership for employment. In other words, we have a "right to work" without joining the Mob.
 
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utbagpiper

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....

What are your thoughts? Could/Should all/any companies create or beable to create contracts of this nature that would be legally binding? I could understand a contract of this nature if you're salary, hence, always "on the clock" but, I am generally refering to time card punching jobs/work.

I see two different questions. What is permissible? What do we think should be permissible?

First, reality as best I know it.

The current legal answer is, "It depends." For example, the Utah State legislature is currently considering a bill to ban "non compete" clauses in most cases. In some States, these clause are already non-enforceable. In other States, they can be enforced. And it varies from industry to industry.

A news anchor or other on-air talent will often sign a non-compete clause as part of his employment contract. As an example he gets a 5 year contract and agrees that for 2 years after leaving station X, he will not work as on-air talent for any other station in the same market. This doesn't sound too onerous. Ditto under similar conditions for executives at almost any company. They get an employment contract guarantee employment (barring major violations of duties) for some number of years, and as part of that agree not to go to work for any competitor for a modest time frame after leaving their current company.

But the use of non-compete clauses is spreading and has become common (where permissible) in the tech industry, even without employment contracts. As a condition of getting hired into an at-will position, you have to agree not to work for any competitor for a year or two after leaving or even after being laid off.

It is said that Henry Ford would pay a premium to any employees who would agree to abstain from alcohol in their off time. I think was based on some combination of personal morals and a belief that healthy employees were more productive while at work.

A growing number of companies are providing an "incentive" for workers who keep their blood pressure, cholesterol, weight, or other health metrics within some acceptable range. Again, this is based on the premise that healthy employees cost less for insurance premiums, have fewer sick days, and are more productive. It will be interesting to see how far this can go before we get laws limiting it. After all, it can get hard to distinguish between an "incentive" for those who meet the targets and a "penalty" for those who don't meet the targets; and when do you cross the line into unfairly discriminating against those with pre-existing conditions or even ADA protections?

Back to the talent industry, it is common for companies signing endorsement contracts with sports figures or other celebrities to include clauses about any conduct that casts the company in a bad light. Punch your girlfriend, get a DUI, make racist or politically inappropriate remarks and your million dollar endorsement deal with Nike is likely to evaporate under such clauses. Ditto your lucrative endorsement deal with fast food when you are caught sexual abusing little boys. And really, who could object to such clauses in these cases.

Where I think we start to get nervous is when a company presumes to impose conditions that have no seeming connection to work. It starts to look like a backdoor end-run around anti-discrimination protections in some cases. "We are equal opportunity and don't discriminate based on race. But we require employees not to associate with the NAACP or La Raza."

Banning off the clock alcohol use looks like imposing personal religious or social views on others. A few hours after imbibing, all alcohol clears the system and has no discernible effects on job performance. Similar bans on marijuana and many other drugs have been justified on the basis that if I can detect the drugs with a test, it might be having some effect on you. Or at the very least, if you use such drugs off the job, you might use them on the job or just before coming to work and that would create a hazard. And they are illegal, which I think has been the real difference between alcohol and other drugs. It will be interesting to see what happens as pot becomes more socially accepted and legalized.

But put in other terms, how many of us want our pilot or brain surgeon to show up to work after a weekend of using pot, heroin, or other recreational drugs? For that matter, if we knew he routinely spent the weekend getting hammered on booze? In theory, all we care about is on-the-job performance. But in practice do we really believe the guy who gets slammed every weekend is likely to perform as well during the week as the guy with a more moderate lifestyle?

As for other employment conditions, consider the myriad laws that limit on-the-clock conditions. Employers must maintain safe employment conditions. They are not legally allowed to violate OSHA regs regardless of what contracts they claim to have negotiated.

What do I think should be allowed?

1-I think this is an area where State level solutions are better than one-size-fits-all federal laws in most cases. Some diversity among the States is a good thing.

2-I think companies have a right to limit conduct that would cast the company in a bad light. I've spent my 20 year career being very careful to never mention my employer, never wear any of my company logo shirts, etc, in any political setting. My legal political activity is not my boss's business....so long as my boss is never associated with such activity. He has as much right not to be associated with my conduct as I have to freely engage in legal political activism.

3-I think we'd avoid and eliminate a host of conflicts if we'd disassociate health insurance from employment. Hobby lobby should not be expected to pay for birth control or aborficants that offend the religious/moral beliefs of the owners. Hobby lobby employees should have real options for insurance that comport to their morals rather than those of their employer. It seems perfectly reasonable that employers should be expected to cover the extra insurance costs for employees who choose to be obese or to smoke. But should some increased risk of future health problems be a bar to employment today?

4-I generally favor private contracting...when there is a level playing field such as between on-screen/on-air talent and media companies. If you can command a multi-million dollar salary with a guaranteed term of employment I think you can either negotiate for yourself, or hire really good agents/lawyers to protect your interests. So no compete clauses, morality clauses, limits on your weight or your hair style, limits on your public comments, etc, etc, can all be negotiated on a level playing field among those who have roughly equal power.

But I also recognize the disparity in many relationships. With good reason we don't allow prison guards to have sex with inmates, shrinks don't get to date their patients, and teachers don't get to have sex with students. Legally, it is risky for bosses to have relationships with subordinates.

If you're a punch-the-clock wage-slave who needs work, you are likely not in a position to negotiate over grossly unjust employment terms. You need a job and an employer may well be in a position to take advantage of you.

I favor parking lot preemption that prevents employers from enforcing no-gun policies in private cars parked in employee parking lots. The boss isn't going to assume liability for your welfare when you drive home and so has no right to limit your lawful possession of a firearm during that drive. I oppose non-compete agreements for at-will employees. Right-to-work better mean right to work. We have plenty of laws to protect IP without keeping a guy from working in his chosen field. And if my off-hours conduct doesn't directly cast my boss in some bad light or adversely affect my on-the-job performance, I don't think it is any of his business.

In brief terms, I think in certain limited cases an employer ought to be able to impose off-the-clock employment conditions. But in most cases, I think such contracts should be non-enforceable under the "contrary to public policy" doctrine.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Seems that "right to work" is a bit of a misnomer. Should be "right to be fired ". Companies must love that legislation. Workers, not so much.

Most workers like being employed. When you compare unemployment rates between States with right-to-work laws and States that have allowed unions to control employment, workers tend to like the macro effects of right-to-work, even if they'd prefer a little more short-term job security.
 
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