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Thread: The predictable effects of marijuana legalization. Drugs, not the ‘Ferguson effect'

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    The predictable effects of marijuana legalization. Drugs, not the ‘Ferguson effect'

    The predictable effects of marijuana legalization. Drugs, not the ‘Ferguson effect,’ are spiking violent crime

    Last year, D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier told NewsChannel 8 that decriminalizing marijuana “saves us from having to charge someone for small amounts of marijuana now, because it really never was productive to begin with.” As someone who wants to reduce crime, she may not be aware that marijuana legalization does not necessarily decrease crime, and possibly increases it. In Seattle, one of the four states along with the District that has legalized recreational use of marijuana, violent crime has increased by 6 percent since the marijuana law was passed.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/multi...uana-l8201jpg/

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...le-effects-of/
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Portugal's 2000 decriminalization of drugs says differently as quote: Portugal is the 11th most peaceful country in the world. unquote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Portugal

    ipse
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    I don't think that there have been any peer reviewed studies that indicate that marijuana increases violent tendencies. From my own observations, it has the opposite effect, unlike alcohol.

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    Granted, many believe marijuana makes people docile. However, according to a study called “Is Marijuana a Gateway Drug?” from the Eastern Economic Journal, “Marijuana intoxication may spawn curiosity or diminish apprehension about trying more dangerous drugs.” Another article titled “Youth Violence, Guns, and the Illicit-Drug Industry” from The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, says, “Because those [drug] markets are illegal, the participants must arm themselves for self-protection, and the resulting arms race among young people results in more frequent resorting to guns.”
    From the article linked above.

    Two personal anecdotes do not data make, not even "observations."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    I don't think that there have been any peer reviewed studies that indicate that marijuana increases violent tendencies. From my own observations, it has the opposite effect, unlike alcohol.
    from Columbia:
    Developmental associations between substance use and violence
    quote:
    Concurrent associations between frequency of substance use and violence were relatively strong throughout adolescence and were somewhat stronger for marijuana than alcohol, especially in early adolescence. Only in early adolescence was the longitudinal relationship between marijuana use and later violence especially strong. unquote

    the study specifically states this trait was mainly seen in early adolescence and quote: Prevention efforts should be directed at aggressive males who are multiple-substance users in early adolescence. unquote http://journals.cambridge.org/action...line&aid=43707

    this cite you can pick your substance, decide if you are the victim or perp and see the association: http://www.who.int/violencepreventio...t_drug_use.pdf

    national institute of health:
    Dating Violence and Substance Use in College Students: A Review of the Literature
    quote: Marijuana is one drug that has shown to be associated with perpetrating physical aggression, and research is needed to determine whether acute marijuana use is associated with perpetration or whether it is marijuana withdrawal symptoms or third variables that are associated with perpetration. unquote http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3224085/

    to be clear, alcohol also led to perpetration of violence.

    ipse
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    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Or it could be that violent people tend to use drugs, not the drugs that make people violent.

    Spousal abuse has always been linked to alcohol. That does not make a drinker an abuser, they had that in their system already. AFAIK Hitler, Stalin, Mao were not pot smokers.

    Studies are always started with a goal, and the study is tailored to that goal. When using studies the information provided must be analyzed taking the bias into account.

    This is why so many drug trials had favorable results only later the drugs are found unsafe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    From the article linked above.

    Two personal anecdotes do not data make, not even "observations."
    To compound that.

    Most of the time it has to do with authority lying about the effects.

    Wait, weed did not kill me or any else like government said it would. I wonder if they lied about drugs; h, k ,j, &f.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    To compound that.

    Most of the time it has to do with authority lying about the effects.

    Wait, weed did not kill me or any else like government said it would. I wonder if they lied about drugs; h, k ,j, &f.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    unfortunately, the government has lied about the war on drugs, a battle we have been losing for decades...but the loss of revenue to those who continue to live the myth would devastate our economy.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    unfortunately, the government has lied about the war on drugs, a battle we have been losing for decades...but the loss of revenue to those who continue to live the myth would devastate our economy.

    ipse
    100% reserve banking would shock the hell out of our economy.

    But you are correct illegal drug sales do keep the stock market afloat.

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    A missing angle is how a bunch of state costumed thugs are not happy with the new liberty and are taking other angles and cracking down harder where they can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    A missing angle is how a bunch of state costumed thugs are not happy with the new liberty and are taking other angles and cracking down harder where they can.
    Freedom, those are the individuals as well as state and federal agencies i was referring to being devastated if the drug war was cancelled.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Freedom, those are the individuals as well as state and federal agencies i was referring to being devastated if the drug war was cancelled.

    ipse
    I know, it would help end their job security, so they go out of their way to cause problems.

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    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Or it could be that violent people tend to use drugs, not the drugs that make people violent.

    Spousal abuse has always been linked to alcohol. That does not make a drinker an abuser, they had that in their system already.
    I recall the old Bill Cosby routine about cocaine enhancing your personality. "But what if you are an A-hole?"

    Of course alcohol users "had in their system" already. One of the first effects of alcohol is to reduce inhibitions. It is what makes it the "social lubricant" that eases dating, allows white men to dance, and helps get some into the mood.

    But it is also what causes some users to exhibit violent tendencies they otherwise keep under control.

    A guy with violent tendencies who doesn't act on them isn't violent. A guy with a really bad temper who learns to control that temper isn't losing his temper. A guy who desires to take advantage of a woman, but who doesn't act on that desire isn't a rapist. A major part of growing out of adolescence and into adulthood is learning to control our impulses. No doubt some folks have more negative impulses they need to control than do others. But if they control them, who cares?

    The problem is when these folks use alcohol, lower their inhibitions (and their judgment), and start acting in ways contrary to their usual self-control.

    If a guy is a happy or sleepy drunk, getting drunk probably doesn't cause him too many problems. But the guy who gets angry, violent, or belligerent? That guy should avoid alcohol.

    I expect a similar story can be told about many other recreational drugs.

    I would not be shocked to learn that those who are drawn to recreational drugs are also more likely to have some propensity to violence or other anti-social behavior. But if, in the absence of the recreational drugs those same people don't behave criminally, then we can point to the presence and use of drugs as a defining part of the problem.



    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Studies are always started with a goal, and the study is tailored to that goal. When using studies the information provided must be analyzed taking the bias into account.
    Yes, bias must be considered. But that doesn't mean every study is invalid. It certainly doesn't mean every study whose results we dislike is invalid.

    Speaking of bias, everyone tells their own biased version of history. And the current narrative of marijuana (and/or other recreational drugs) being largely harmless and banned only because of some government plot and lies is one such, biased, inaccurate history.

    Recreational drugs got banned, and alcohol remains regulated, because of the externalities users impose on society (along with moral crusading and other factors). But let's not pretend that all pot smokers, and drinkers, all recreational drug users are peace loving, law abiding citizens save for the unjust criminalization of their favored sacrament. Nor can we compare them to gun owners by saying we shouldn't be punished for the conduct of the rare criminal.

    Half of all homes in this nation have guns. Yet violent criminals comprise something less than 5% of all of society. Additionally, private gun ownership brings tremendous benefit to society...."the security of a free state" we might recall.

    What proportion of drug users truly manage to keep their drug use private? Alcohol users alone killed more people in this nation with cars last year than did criminals with guns (I'm excluding suicides with guns). That doesn't include domestic violence fueled by alcohol abuse, bar fights, liver disease, and so on. One drug. Toss in pot, heroin, meth, and a gaggle of others and the cost to society of recreational drug use is high even in the absence of violence that can be attributed to the black market nature of the drugs. And in exchange, what benefit to society? What benefit to the individual or using meth or heroine? I don't entirely discount personal freedom. But personal freedom to commit suicide on the installment plan is not a huge benefit.

    This is NOT an argument in favor of the current war on drugs. I can favor speed limits without suggesting we use armed drones to enforce those limits.

    But it is to suggest that if we are going to discuss a study on the crime rate in areas that legalize pot, maybe we ought to discuss the study, rather than our own preconceived notions. Maybe the study is bunk. Or maybe there is something there to be learned despite our preconceived notions. Maybe something that isn't all that shocking if we back away from our preconceived ideas and think rationally about what drugs do and maybe why some limits were enacted in the first place.

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    A 1998 study. http://econpapers.repec.org/article/..._3a149-164.htm

    A 1995 study. http://scholarlycommons.law.northwes...7&context=jclc

    Bipolar rates amongst adults. http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorde...polar-disorder

    Missouri repealed a bill in 2007 that since 1921 had required background checks on all handgun purchases. Since the 2007 repeal, the murder rate in Missouri has gone up 14 percent, the firearm homicide rate 25 percent and the firearm suicide rate 16.1 percent.
    Hmm...
    Murders in Missouri

    2007: 382
    2008: 474
    2009: 402
    2010: 435
    2011: 385
    2012: 390

    https://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MS...2CrimeInMO.pdf
    Then there is this contention.

    Simply put, the Show Me State’s murder rate grew faster when its universal background check law–which included a mandate for background checks at gun shows–was in place.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ground-checks/
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    FBI director James Comey blames the increase in violent crimes on the “Ferguson Effect.” Mr. Comey said officers feel “under siege” by cellphone cameras and are reluctant to do their jobs. He said his officers tell him, “We don’t feel like being that guy in the video.’
    If you do not want to be "that guy" then do your effing job and follow the law not your effing department policies!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    [ ...] Validity of a study is not the point. The bias in the study is the point.[ ... ]
    Overwhelming confirmation, as of validity or bias, is a common topic elsewhere at the moment, and is evidence of failed objectivity. Do you have an objective test for bias that will invalidate your favorite ox? I thought not.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Funny.. I found adolescent recreational use of marijuana led to an increase in Dorito consumption and slower reaction times in video games. and usually also led to an increase in sleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    from Columbia:
    Developmental associations between substance use and violence
    quote:
    Concurrent associations between frequency of substance use and violence were relatively strong throughout adolescence and were somewhat stronger for marijuana than alcohol, especially in early adolescence. Only in early adolescence was the longitudinal relationship between marijuana use and later violence especially strong. unquote

    the study specifically states this trait was mainly seen in early adolescence and quote: Prevention efforts should be directed at aggressive males who are multiple-substance users in early adolescence. unquote http://journals.cambridge.org/action...line&aid=43707

    this cite you can pick your substance, decide if you are the victim or perp and see the association: http://www.who.int/violencepreventio...t_drug_use.pdf

    national institute of health:
    Dating Violence and Substance Use in College Students: A Review of the Literature
    quote: Marijuana is one drug that has shown to be associated with perpetrating physical aggression, and research is needed to determine whether acute marijuana use is associated with perpetration or whether it is marijuana withdrawal symptoms or third variables that are associated with perpetration. unquote http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3224085/

    to be clear, alcohol also led to perpetration of violence.

    ipse
    Yet no one is talking about the "mistake" of the legalization of alcohol

    Correlation is not causation, and use of marijuana "MAY" correlate with violent behavior (though based on a fundamental understanding of what marijuana tends to do to the brain, this seems preposterous), but until we can do more intensive experiments with marijuana and it's effect on the brain (which is currently illegal in this country) then we are going to have to continue to rely on biased "studies". And I'll direct your attention to the .gov on the end of that link to point out the bias of that study.

    The effect on the population that the War on Drugs has been to perpetuate mass violence through the criminal control of the black market of these drugs which always have been and always will be in high demand. Every instance of the model of interdiction and incarceration when it comes to drugs has been shown to be a complete and utter failure. Not to mention the true motivations behind the War on Drugs was not to reduce the dangers of drugs to society but to target certain populations for infiltration and incarceration, as well as the tendency for the government to exploit the illegal trade for black budgets (cough*Iran Contra*cough*republican administration*cough*US controlled afghan opium*cough*explosion of heroin trade in the US*cough).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    Yet no one is talking about the "mistake" of the legalization of alcohol

    Correlation is not causation, and use of marijuana "MAY" correlate with violent behavior (though based on a fundamental understanding of what marijuana tends to do to the brain, this seems preposterous), but until we can do more intensive experiments with marijuana and it's effect on the brain (which is currently illegal in this country) then we are going to have to continue to rely on biased "studies". And I'll direct your attention to the .gov on the end of that link to point out the bias of that study.

    The effect on the population that the War on Drugs has been to perpetuate mass violence through the criminal control of the black market of these drugs which always have been and always will be in high demand. Every instance of the model of interdiction and incarceration when it comes to drugs has been shown to be a complete and utter failure. Not to mention the true motivations behind the War on Drugs was not to reduce the dangers of drugs to society but to target certain populations for infiltration and incarceration, as well as the tendency for the government to exploit the illegal trade for black budgets (cough*Iran Contra*cough*republican administration*cough*US controlled afghan opium*cough*explosion of heroin trade in the US*cough).

    sorry educational institutes as well as governmental agencies in the U.S. as well as from around the world have been conducting experiments in the use of psychotropic substances on humans for decades...

    BTW, first link was from WHO second link if you bothered to check instead of summarily following the lemmin'gs was originally from a peer reviewed publication called Aggression Violent Behavior 2011 Nov-Dec; 16(6): 541–550. doi: 10.1016/j.avb.2011.08.003.

    the only mass violence being peretrated has been from those enforcing the war on drugs per se

    finally...go read what the country of Portugal has done in 14 years...i'll even help ~ http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-ye...ing#.kHOQI0Cr9

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Or it could be that violent people tend to use drugs, not the drugs that make people violent.

    Spousal abuse has always been linked to alcohol. That does not make a drinker an abuser, they had that in their system already. AFAIK Hitler, Stalin, Mao were not pot smokers.

    Studies are always started with a goal, and the study is tailored to that goal. When using studies the information provided must be analyzed taking the bias into account.

    This is why so many drug trials had favorable results only later the drugs are found unsafe.
    Hypothesis testing : have idea .. look for data to disprove it.

    Not to look for data to prove it ... a monkey can do that.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Overwhelming confirmation, as of validity or bias, is a common topic elsewhere at the moment, and is evidence of failed objectivity. Do you have an objective test for bias that will invalidate your favorite ox? I thought not.
    Either you believe their own data contradicts their own premise, or you do not. Their own numbers are posted for all to see...who are willing to look...that is.

    You, apparently, refuse(d) to look and only see what you wish(ed) to see...no biggie.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Better late than never, or as a local business advertises, "Come early or late and avoid the wait!" But I am not bound to any sort of balance or open mind as my judgements and prejudices are validated by 67 years of success.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    I am firmly and adamantly against it. Marijuana and all drugs should stay illegal. They cause too any problems. Addicts are either violent, hostile and aggressive or extremely lazy and guilty of sloth. You will never get anywhere in life constantly expecting rides from people. You have two legs, use them. Its unrealistic to think you will always get a ride.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PATRIOT88 View Post
    I am firmly and adamantly against it. Marijuana and all drugs should stay illegal. They cause too any problems. Addicts are either violent, hostile and aggressive or extremely lazy and guilty of sloth. You will never get anywhere in life constantly expecting rides from people. You have two legs, use them. Its unrealistic to think you will always get a ride.

    ok, huh?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Better late than never, or as a local business advertises, "Come early or late and avoid the wait!" But I am not bound to any sort of balance or open mind as my judgements and prejudices are validated by 67 years of success.
    Anecdotal data to validate bias...OK.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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