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Thread: No trespass signs stop police? Answer is no.

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    No trespass signs stop police? Answer is no.

    In this direct criminal appeal, Defendant-Appellant Ralph Carloss contends that two police officers violated the Fourth Amendment by knocking on his front door, seeking to speak with him. Ordinarily a police officer, like any citizen, has an implied license to approach a home, knock on the front door, and ask to speak with the occupants. Carloss, however, claims that “No Trespassing”signs posted aroundthe house and on the front door of his home revoked that implied license. We conclude, to the contrary, that under the circumstances presented here, those “No Trespassing” signs would not have conveyed to an objective officer that he could not approach the house and knock on the front door seeking to have a consensual conversation with the occupants

    (sorry for format .. cut and pasted it but you can read the opinion .. its from the first page)

    http://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/13/13-7082.pdf
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-14-2016 at 06:07 AM. Reason: fixed very difficult technical formatting - sheesh

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    Police license not unlimited, but exigent circumstances prevail.

    Did you read the opinion? I did, carefully enough to find; "One final point: police ability to enter the curtilage is not untrammeled; if a homeowner revokes the license with sufficient clarity, police can no longer avail themselves of the implicit license. Of course, police can always enter a home if an emergency or other exigent circumstance has provided sufficient justification to enter. But where no such circumstances exist, police entry into the curtilage turns on the implicit license."

    Beyond that, it was obfuscating word salad designed to convey precisely what OPie took away.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Did you read the opinion? I did, carefully enough to find; "One final point: police ability to enter the curtilage is not untrammeled; if a homeowner revokes the license with sufficient clarity, police can no longer avail themselves of the implicit license.
    signs that state 'come back with a warrant' should have that desired effect.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    When the two officers went to the house to speak with Carloss, they drove into the driveway, parked, walked to the front door, and knocked “for several minutes.” In response to their knocks, the officers could hear movement inside the house, but no one answered the front door. Instead, “a short time later,” Heather Wilson exited the back door of the house and met the officers in the side yard. (Id. at 17.) The officers explained why they were there and asked who else was in the home. Wilson responded that Carloss, Earnest Dry, and Katy Homberger were inside.

    At about that time, Carloss exited the back door of the house and joined the officers and Wilson in the side yard. At no time did either Wilson or Carloss point out the “No Trespassing” signs to the officers or ask the officers to leave. The officers told Carloss that they suspected he had a machine gun. Carloss responded that he could not be around “ammunition” because of his prior criminal conviction. The officers then asked who lived in the house; Carloss responded that he had a room there,but Earnest Dry owned the house. (Earnest Dry’s mother, Diana Fishinghawk, was the actual owner.) When the officers asked Carloss if they could search the home, Carloss told them he would have to get “the man of the house,” referring to Dry. (Id.) As Carloss started to go inside, apparently to get Dry, the officers asked if they could go in with Carloss; he said, “sure.”
    If you are not going to enforce your signs then you get what you deserve. Carloss invited the cops in. Whet do you expect?????

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    I have doormats that state exactly that…,

    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    signs that state 'come back with a warrant' should have that desired effect.
    "come back with a warrant" given to me several Christmas' ago from my wife!

    sidestreet

    Jeremiah 29:11-13

    we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Did you read the opinion? I did, carefully enough to find; "One final point: police ability to enter the curtilage is not untrammeled; if a homeowner revokes the license with sufficient clarity, police can no longer avail themselves of the implicit license. Of course, police can always enter a home if an emergency or other exigent circumstance has provided sufficient justification to enter. But where no such circumstances exist, police entry into the curtilage turns on the implicit license."

    Beyond that, it was obfuscating word salad designed to convey precisely what OPie took away.
    That is from a concurring opinion, not the actual opinion.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidestreet View Post
    "come back with a warrant" given to me several Christmas' ago from my wife!

    sidestreet

    Jeremiah 29:11-13

    we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.
    You're saying your wife is a keeper?????

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    Dang straight, color…,

    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    You're saying your wife is a keeper?????
    25 years and still counting. When folks ask me how long we've been married, I always tells'm "Not long enough!!!"

    She puts the AWE in awesome!!! ;>)

    sidestreet

    Jeremiah 29:11-13

    we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidestreet View Post
    25 years and still counting. When folks ask me how long we've been married, I always tells'm "Not long enough!!!"

    She puts the AWE in awesome!!! ;>)

    sidestreet

    Jeremiah 29:11-13

    we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.
    Over 40 years for me. Check back in 15 years......

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Concuring opinion.
    In my view, because the implicit license was not revoked, police could approach Carloss’s door and knock, as “any private citizen might do.” Jardines, 133 S. Ct. at 1416.
    Excuse me Chief Judge Tymkovich, what you're saying is the "No Trespass" signs are irrelevant. If that is the case then a locked door doesn't mean do not enter. If you leave after Breaking and entering when asked to leave then no harm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Over 40 years for me. Check back in 15 years......
    Kudos on the 40 yrs color I,m right there with sidestreet, 25 yrs and counting. Don't see that changing in the next 15 yrs.
    By the way I grew up on a big farm outside Cincinnati on the Warren, Hamilton and Butler county lines. Too many changes and people moving in for me, moved to NC 21 yrs ago. Still visit family there from time to time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Concuring opinion.
    Excuse me Chief Judge Tymkovich, what you're saying is the "No Trespass" signs are irrelevant. If that is the case then a locked door doesn't mean do not enter. If you leave after Breaking and entering when asked to leave then no harm.
    Well..yeah, thats what the judge says .. and many prior judges before him have said the same...

    Now you know this .. do you how to keep them from knocking on your door?

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    Well the obvious answer to the previous question is simply to remove the door (sarcasm is here). If there is no door then they can't possibly knock on it then, can they?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Did you read the opinion? I did, carefully enough to find; "One final point: police ability to enter the curtilage is not untrammeled; if a homeowner revokes the license with sufficient clarity, police can no longer avail themselves of the implicit license. Of course, police can always enter a home if an emergency or other exigent circumstance has provided sufficient justification to enter. But where no such circumstances exist, police entry into the curtilage turns on the implicit license."

    Beyond that, it was obfuscating word salad designed to convey precisely what OPie took away.
    This is one more reason have your entire yard fenced with a LOCKED gate. One has to hop the fence and intrude upon the curtilage to get to the door. It has proven effective against stray dogs, salesmen, Baptists, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons and generally unwanted visitors for several years now.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 03-15-2016 at 11:10 AM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In this direct criminal appeal, Defendant-Appellant Ralph Carloss contends that two police officers violated the Fourth Amendment by knocking on his front door, seeking to speak with him. Ordinarily a police officer, like any citizen, has an implied license to approach a home, knock on the front door, and ask to speak with the occupants. Carloss, however, claims that “No Trespassing”signs posted aroundthe house and on the front door of his home revoked that implied license. We conclude, to the contrary, that under the circumstances presented here, those “No Trespassing” signs would not have conveyed to an objective officer that he could not approach the house and knock on the front door seeking to have a consensual conversation with the occupants

    (sorry for format .. cut and pasted it but you can read the opinion .. its from the first page)

    http://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/13/13-7082.pdf
    Well, gee! What the heck are the courts looking, for, anyway? A "police may not approach the house and knock on the front door seeking to have a consensual conversation with the occupants" sign?

    Ok. FINE, "judge." Have it your way. Does THIS "convey to an objective officer that he could not approach the house and knock on the front door seeking to have a consensual conversation with the occupants?"

    If you still say "No," your "honor," then you're not qualified to sit in that chair.

    Last edited by since9; 03-18-2016 at 02:33 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Well, gee! What the heck are the courts looking, for, anyway? A "police may not approach the house and knock on the front door seeking to have a consensual conversation with the occupants" sign?

    Ok. FINE, "judge." Have it your way. Does THIS "convey to an objective officer that he could not approach the house and knock on the front door seeking to have a consensual conversation with the occupants?"

    If you still say "No," your "honor," then you're not qualified to sit in that chair.

    I have seen argument that this kind of signage may work ....

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    http://www.bna.com/premeditated-invo...-b57982068746/

    Another article on signage ^^

    However, what's to stop a cop from just pulling this sign out of the ground and leaving it face down and then approaching? One problem with signs

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.bna.com/premeditated-invo...-b57982068746/

    Another article on signage ^^

    However, what's to stop a cop from just pulling this sign out of the ground and leaving it face down and then approaching? One problem with signs
    Mount on metal post in plastic pipe; connect to household 220 electric circuit?????

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    UPDATE!! John Wesley Hall, COME BACK WITH A WARRANT, THIS IS CURTILAGE

    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=21287

    http://fourthamendment.com/wp-conten...DL._SX466_.jpg

    US Law Week Blog

    Law professors Andrew Ferguson and Stephen Henderson designed a series of lawn signs and bumper stickers that American citizens can use to enforce their Fourth Amendment rights on their property. “LAWn Signs” products are all available for purchase on Zazzle.

    http://www.bna.com/uploadedImages/BN...he_Merits/LAWn Signs.jpg

    http://www.bna.com/premeditated-invo...-b57982068746/

    Will Florida v Jardines become our Jarndyce v Jarndice from Dickens' Bleak House?

    http://www.zazzle.com/lawn_sign_yard...65351331847269
    Last edited by Nightmare; 03-20-2016 at 05:54 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  20. #20
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    Use a Baggie of oregano on a trap-gun. It's more clearly illegal and "we advocate only for the law abiding."
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Mount on metal post in plastic pipe; connect to household 220 electric circuit?????
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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