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Thread: Latest Trend: Small Cheaper Handguns. Is Wisconsin In on This?

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    Latest Trend: Small Cheaper Handguns. Is Wisconsin In on This?

    Bloomberg reports that as handgun ownership grows people are opting for smaller concealable handguns. Do you folks agree that this is a good trend?

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/03/15...?intcmp=hplnws

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    Story is about tiny guns, yet no tiny guns in the story? Looks like a Sig 229 to me, but might be a smaller model. It's not a 238 or a 938, Sigs tiny guns.

    I'm glad he only gave her one bullet.

    Expert must have some pretty quick reflexes if he is waiting for the semi-auto slide to cycle. Not sure I agree that a revolver is not a pistol, nor that it can be fired faster than a semi-auto. Did I hear that right. Doubt the difference is measurable to the naked ear, nor makes much difference to the person being shot.

    As far as the question, no one I know is looking at a .380. The last three women I talked to all ended up with a 9mm of some sort.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 03-15-2016 at 05:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    Story is about tiny guns, yet no tiny guns in the story?

    I'm glad he only gave her one bullet.

    Expert must have some pretty quick reflexes if he is waiting for the semi-auto slide to cycle. Not sure I agree that a revolver is not a pistol, nor that it can be fired faster than a semi-auto. Did I hear that right. Doubt the difference is measurable to the naked ear, nor makes much difference to the person being shot.

    As far as the question, no one I know is looking at a .380. The last three women I talked to all ended up with a 9mm of some sort.
    The article may be promoting the cheaper cost and more ability to control recoil. However those 380s have a big recoil. Though I carry a 347mag revolver, no they are slower than a semi auto 1911s i could pump out 10 shots from a 40cal Beretta faster than my mag revolver. But there are smaller calibers that may fare equal to larger guns. Kel tech 22 mag and Rockland 22TCM. The Kel Tech is a 30 round 22 mag. looking at the triangulation of the area to aim on the body, any of the smaller guns I mentioned should be able to take down the target. Any input from more experienced members would be appreciated before I make purchases on said handguns for oc/CC.

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    I'm far from an "expert" but I was not impressed with this guy at all as a spokesman. Seemed nervous, and wrong on a couple of things. I'll have to look again, but I always thought revolvers and semi autos were BOTH Pistols?

    Article is about cheap, tiny guns, then he shows a Sig Sauer which is most definitely not cheap, and what I believe is a 229, which is not tiny, nor a .380. No mention of 4 gun safety rules, nor even one. She looked scared to death when they showed her one shot. I wonder if she fired more than that?

    I have 4 Sigs, somebody tell me where they sell them cheaply!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I'm far from an "expert" but I was not impressed with this guy at all as a spokesman. Seemed nervous, and wrong on a couple of things. I'll have to look again, but I always thought revolvers and semi autos were BOTH Pistols?

    Article is about cheap, tiny guns, then he shows a Sig Sauer which is most definitely not cheap, and what I believe is a 229, which is not tiny, nor a .380. No mention of 4 gun safety rules, nor even one. She looked scared to death when they showed her one shot. I wonder if she fired more than that?

    I have 4 Sigs, somebody tell me where they sell them cheaply!!!!

    I always thought revolvers and semi autos were BOTH Pistols?

    Nope... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol

    Also see.... https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE...p44-sec921.htm
    Definition of “Handgun”

    Pub. L. 99–408, 10, Aug. 28, 1986, 100 Stat. 922, provided that: “For purposes of section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, as added by the first section of this Act, ‘handgun’ means any firearm including a pistol or revolver designed to be fired by the use of a single hand. The term also includes any combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.”

    AND


    http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...7#sp27.3.478.b


    Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

    IMO
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 03-15-2016 at 11:31 PM.

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    I'll be sure and tell Sam Colt when I see him that his revolving-pistol was in fact NOT a pistol. Not a wiki fan, but your first link seems to infer that the terms can be interchangeable. Guns and Ammo 9 myths of firearms says that all pistols are handguns, and all handguns are pistols. NRA Basic Pistol class seemed to include the option of a revolver as my wife shot a SP101. Either way, still not impressed with the expert. I have been involved with the media enough to know they usually don't get the important parts in the story, and even then it is often wrong. So, maybe they were at the range for more than four minutes and cut out all the good stuff?
    Last edited by Wstar425; 03-16-2016 at 03:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I'll be sure and tell Sam Colt when I see him that his revolving-pistol was in fact NOT a pistol. Not a wiki fan, but your first link seems to infer that the terms can be interchangeable. Guns and Ammo 9 myths of firearms says that all pistols are handguns, and all handguns are pistols. NRA Basic Pistol class seemed to include the option of a revolver as my wife shot a SP101. Either way, still not impressed with the expert. I have been involved with the media enough to know they usually don't get the important parts in the story, and even then it is often wrong. So, maybe they were at the range for more than four minutes and cut out all the good stuff?
    Pistols are pistols , revolvers are revolvers , and pistols and revolvers are handguns.

    I wonder if any handguns are not pistols or revolvers .... maybe possible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Pistols are pistols , revolvers are revolvers , and pistols and revolvers are handguns.

    I wonder if any handguns are not pistols or revolvers .... maybe possible?
    Yep - Skidmark was arrested and tried in Surry county Virginia for brandishing his look alike pointy finger/handgun, even when there was no intent or attempt to make his hand look like a gun.

    It revolved around the forced interpretation of his hand looking like a pistol. Skid won, hands down.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-16-2016 at 07:30 AM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    A true tempest in a teapot. The words at issue are descriptive and/or portmanteau except pistol from pipe and implying integral chamber.

    They're all engineered devices, so engines becomes shortened to gun. Some guns are handguns and some are not.

    In early designs of firearms they were simple tubes first loaded from the muzzle and later from a breech in the tube and breech loaders with a reinforced chamber.

    Some guns moved the reinforced chamber from the tube to a revolving magazine of chambers that were aligned with the tube before ignition.

    Finally, pistols became self-loaders with box magazines to allow rapid repeat fire like the revolving reinforced chambered guns.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    However those 380s have a big recoil.
    +1

    I've shot a couple of them...Kel Tec, Taurus, Ruger. Those little polymer pistols do not handle the .380 (9mm short/Kurz) well and are not a pleasure to shoot. I have monster sized hooks and even I balked at the kick.

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    Take it for what it is an anti gun hit piece from someone who knows nothing about firearms she basically stole the idea from this author.

    http://www.thetrace.org/2016/03/380-...manufacturers/
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    I have shot the small 380s and many other small caliber handguns the biggest trouble is the lack of good sights for a person who knows what they are doing.

    The newer model LCP has a decent set on them making them easier to hit with.

    I own a Jennings J22 that I use to dispatch caught coyotes with I can easily keep them in a fist size group at 20 yards it has surprisingly decent sights on it..

    Most people buy them because they want the smallest gun they can get commonly get. The same reason that the baby Browning's and other 25acp pistols were liked. I hear a lot of I don't want any body to know I have gun wrongful thinking IMHO.

    I have several clients buy them because they were small then buy something bigger after shooting them.

    They are nice to carry, easier to hide and harder to shoot but they can be shot with acceptable accuracy if you know how.

    I also tell them that with CCW and open carry becoming more popular and with printing becoming less of a problem buy something bigger if you can.

    The bigger PPK size 380s are a lot easier to shoot and can be very accurate.

    But then the first rule of a gun fight of having a gun comes into play also.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 03-16-2016 at 08:29 AM.
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    My wife's Dad gave her a "chrome" plated, "wood" grip Ravens .25 cal semi auto. I still have it, but I wouldn't give it to my worst enemy. On second thought.......

    Anyway, have the cardboard box and original parts sheet with prices. If you add up all the individual prices it comes out to $29 and change. I figure it's gotta be worth at least $30 now? Sights are for the most part non existent, but I always figured it didn't matter much when it was 2" from a belly button!

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    Yeah, iinstructors are the only ones to brag on shooting a belly gun offensively.
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    Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    +1

    I've shot a couple of them...Kel Tec, Taurus, Ruger. Those little polymer pistols do not handle the .380 (9mm short/Kurz) well and are not a pleasure to shoot. I have monster sized hooks and even I balked at the kick.
    +2 Forgot the polymer component. Light weight lots of kick. Why are we making small guns with polymer?. However the article's main point is Cost reduction. So polymer is the way to go I suppose.
    Last edited by Law abider; 03-16-2016 at 02:12 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Law abider;2184685] Why are we making small guns with polymer?. QUOTE]

    Because it works well.
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    [QUOTE=Firearms Iinstuctor;2184706]
    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Why are we making small guns with polymer?. QUOTE]

    Because it works well.
    How about the recoil effect. Now The Rockland 22TCM seems to be made with metal and the last tech report I read was that It is loud but the recoil surprisingly less than what one would expect from that kind of a gun. I suppose long barrel vs short in the same caliber also effects recoil. I don't trust poly guns just because plastic has a tendency not to take stress too well with +p ammo.

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    [QUOTE=Law abider;2184709]
    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post

    How about the recoil effect. Now The Rockland 22TCM seems to be made with metal and the last tech report I read was that It is loud but the recoil surprisingly less than what one would expect from that kind of a gun. I suppose long barrel vs short in the same caliber also effects recoil. I don't trust poly guns just because plastic has a tendency not to take stress too well with +p ammo.
    Weight, barrel length, Velocity all effects recoil.

    A heavier firearm well recoil less then a lighter one all else being equal.

    A well design poly firearm well go as many rounds if not more as a metal one.

    All moving parts are subject to stress the more stress on them the faster they wear out.

    Their are plenty of all metal hand guns that are not plus p rated.

    Their are poly firearms that are plus p rated.

    I trust firearms from the major manufactures.
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    Center line of bore axis to frame is a major contributor to felt recoil too.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Center line of bore axis to frame is a major contributor to felt recoil too.
    Grape. Please expound this for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Grape. Please expound this for me.
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-545650.html

    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-17412.html

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....mportant-is-it

    here, now you can be just as confused as i am and i went through at least 4x the number of cites that i listed...

    i walk away with the consensus ~ well yes depending on this or that; could be if you go with yes for this criteria; ya know sometimes if this parameter is changed; nawllll, it is FMagic and a myth...

    i am now of the opinion, i didn't know about it affecting me before, therefore at this point i don't care...i do accept the SW 360PD hurts my hand, wrist, arm...when i run gaggle of practice rounds through it...

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Grape. Please expound this for me.
    http://www.handgunforum.net/new-handguns-area/36669-high-low-bore-axis-what-how-does-affect-my-shooting.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_rise


    The higher the bore, the more impact to your hand.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-17-2016 at 01:54 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Got it. Also Wouldn't a gas diffuser, I call it that, at the end of the barrel allowing the gasses to eject from the top cut the kick? Or could not the end of the barrel be shaped like the AK47s do to also eliminate the kick?

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    and so begins the what ifs that all the sites i visited dating back 6 years begin hypothesizing on ways to mitigate this or that...roflmao...it is true...the more things change the more they stay the same...thanks to Karr...the 1800's french critic & journalist...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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