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Thread: Brussels airport, metro bombed. 13 dead ATM in suicide attack

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    Brussels airport, metro bombed. 13 dead ATM in suicide attack

    Two explosions tore through Brussels airport on Tuesday morning killing 13 people in what Belgian public broadcaster VRT called a suicide attack, and a further blast struck a metro station in the capital shortly afterwards.

    The Belga agency said shots were fired and there were shouts in Arabic shortly before two blasts rang out at the airport. Pictures on social media showed smoke rising from the terminal building through shattered windows and passengers running away down a slipway, some still hauling their bags.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-be...-idUSKCN0WO0LB

    https://news.google.com/news/search?...sion%20airport
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    Last edited by Nightmare; 03-22-2016 at 09:43 AM.
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    Sure glad they're automated...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    And in response to yet another suicide / homicide we get the usual responses:

    1-American POTUS promises to bring the guilty to justice;

    2-Increased "security" in the attacked city;

    3-World leaders expressing dismay;

    4-Nobody willing to call a spade a spade relative to the role Islam plays in these things.


    Ignoring the political correctness and empty promises of justice, the problem with increased security is it does no good. Anyplace people congregate is a potential target. Security checkpoints themselves become great targets because they tend to force large numbers of persons to congregate. Push the security perimeter out farther, and the congregating just moves a few yards and is still a fine target.

    It seems to me, the only way to prevent creating such inviting targets is to disperse security checks far enough out, and have enough of them, that there is no congregating. But there are significant costs there.

    With conventional enemies, such attacks could be discouraged by retaliation sufficient to dissuade. But the current opponents are the very embodiment of having their assets so dispersed as to not present any easy targets.

    Stopping everyone of Middle Eastern descent from entering a nation, or subjecting them to enhanced security measures is probably not going to fly anywhere outside Israel.

    And even being armed doesn't provide much benefit against suicide bombers. If someone follows up with guns, then being armed is of great benefit.

    But until we can develop the Terminator-like scanner that can detect all dangerous items (and ideally detonate them with them and the owner safely isolated from innocents), this is an almost impossible problem to solve.

    Four of those injured in this blast are missionaries for the Church to which I belong; three of them are from Utah.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    first, my heartfelt condolences to the young men's families and friends.

    second, say what? quote: 4-Nobody willing to call a spade a spade relative to the role Islam plays in these things. unquote.

    so you would blame the Mormon religion on the deaths of approximately 120 men, women, and children over the age of 7 which occurred during the 1857 Mountain Meadows massacre done by Mormon sect members or perhaps just those errant cult individuals who misinterpreted the fledgling religion's dogma?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post

    second, say what? quote: 4-Nobody willing to call a spade a spade relative to the role Islam plays in these things. unquote.
    Are you claiming that Islam doesn't play a major role in these kinds of attacks?

    For those looking for a nice read on the topic, I recommend this Imprimus article from a recent speech by the lead prosecutor on the 1993 World Trade Center bombing case. A few relevant excerpts:



    I had no trouble believing what our government was saying: that we should read nothing into the fact that all the men in this terrorist cell were Muslims; that their actions were not representative of any religion or belief system; and that to the extent they were explaining their atrocities by citing Islamic scripture, they were twisting and perverting one of the world’s great religions, a religion that encourages peace.

    Unlike commentators and government press secretaries, I had to examine these claims. Prosecutors don’t get to base their cases on assertions. They have to prove things to commonsense Americans who must be satisfied about not only what happened but why it happened before they will convict people of serious crimes. And in examining the claims, I found them false.

    ...


    ...I did think that if what we were saying as a government was true—that he was perverting Islam—then there must be two or three places where I could nail [the Blind Sheikh] by saying, “You told your followers X, but the doctrine clearly says Y.” So my colleagues and I pored over the Blind Sheikh’s many writings. And what we found was alarming: whenever he quoted the Koran or other sources of Islamic scripture, he quoted them accurately.

    Now, you might be able to argue that he took scripture out of context or gave an incomplete account of it. In my subsequent years of studying Islam, I’ve learned that this is not a particularly persuasive argument. But even if one concedes for the purposes of discussion that it’s a colorable claim, the inconvenient fact remains: Abdel Rahman was not lying about Islam.

    ...

    You could counter that there are other ways of construing the scriptures. ... The point, however, is that what you’d be arguing is an interpretation.

    The fact that there are multiple ways of construing Islam hardly makes the Blind Sheikh’s literal construction wrong. The blunt fact of the matter is that, in this contest of competing interpretations, it is the jihadists who seem to be making sense because they have the words of scripture on their side—it is the others who seem to be dancing on the head of a pin. For our present purposes, however, the fact is that the Blind Sheikh’s summons to jihad was rooted in a coherent interpretation of Islamic doctrine. He was not perverting Islam—he was, if anything, shining a light on the need to reform it.

    Another point, obvious but inconvenient, is that Islam is not a religion of peace. There are ways of interpreting Islam that could make it something other than a call to war. But even these benign constructions do not make it a call to peace. Verses such as “Fight those who believe not in Allah,” and “Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war,” are not peaceful injunctions, no matter how one contextualizes.

    ...

    Habitually, I distinguish between Islam and Muslims. It is objectively important to do so, but I also have a personal reason: when I began working on national security cases, the Muslims I first encountered were not terrorists. To the contrary, they were pro-American patriots who helped us infiltrate terror cells, disrupt mass-murder plots, and gather the evidence needed to convict jihadists. We have an obligation to our national security to understand our enemies; but we also have an obligation to our principles not to convict by association—not to confound our Islamist enemies with our Muslim allies and fellow citizens. Churchill appreciated this distinction. “Individual Moslems,” he stressed, “may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen.” The problem was not the people, he concluded. It was the doctrine.

    (emphasis added)

    There are additional great insights including how Sharia law is the antithesis of Western law. And the danger presented when our government officials refuse to identity honestly and accurately the source of a problem.



    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so you would blame the Mormon religion on the deaths of approximately 120 men, women, and children over the age of 7 which occurred during the 1857 Mountain Meadows massacre done by Mormon sect members or perhaps just those errant cult individuals who misinterpreted the fledgling religion's dogma?
    That you can find no more recent, or common examples of atrocities committed by large groups of Mormons than to reach back to a singular, horrific incident in the mid 19th century, tells us all we need to know about your attempt to draw parallels to some one dozen terror attacks in or against the US by those who just happen to be Muslim and several dozen attacks world wide since the 1980s. See this nice list at Wiki.

    There is no shortage of those who do blame the Mormon religion for the massacre at Mountain Meadows. That some have brought it up more than once on this board makes me suspect that some here are in this camp, even as they bristle at any suggestion that the teachings of the Koran and Islamic religious authorities might actually bear some responsibility for what our president prefers to call "Workplace Violence incidents" or some such nonsense. Some go so far as to try to blame Brigham Young for personally ordering the murders, despite obvious geographic impediments to that (~300 mile one way ride in the days before telegraph came to Utah). Indeed, politicized attempts to hold Brigham Young personally responsible may well have impeded the ability to properly prosecute and punish those who actually perpetuated the murders.

    But even learned LDS scholars concede that the totality of teachings from church leaders--including doomsday warnings about the US Government launching a war of extermination as had been done in Missouri previously and a desire to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum Smith--along with the circumstances of impending war, most certainly contributed to what is otherwise a virtually inexplicable act on the part of men who had already mostly peacefully endured years of significant persecution and who went on to live peaceful and decent lives.

    Notably, as Christians, Mormons accept as scripture, the New Testament with its injunctions to "turn the other cheek" to "pray for those who despitefully use you" to "love thy enemies". We believe we should agree quickly with our adversary, and to walk two miles with he who compels us to walk one with him. We believe the meek will inherit the earth. Like all Christians, we are commanded to proclaim peace and renounce war. "The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ" which we also accept as scripture, goes on to teach that "contention is of the devil". "The Doctrine and Covenants" and "The Pearl of Great Price" (the last two books of Scripture in LDS Canon) expand upon the Biblical command to "render unto Caesar" with explicit commandments to seek out and support good men for office, to uphold honorable government officials in the performance of their duties, and to "honor, obey, and sustain the law".

    All men are imperfect. And so Mormons--like all Christians--fail to fully live up to these (and other) commandments. But when we act in a way that is not loving and peaceful were are acting contrary to our canonized scripture and the teachings of our Lord, Savior, and Master, Jesus Christ.

    Despite all the bluster of the politically correct crowd, despite attempts by those who hate Christianity to claim Christianity has its own history of abuse and war, despite the attempts to silence those who bring up inconvenient truths, the same cannot be said of those who act violently in the name of Mohammed.

    CITATIONS to the contrary, from the Koran and from accepted Imans, will be accepted. Innuendo and ramblings will be appropriately mocked and discarded.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  7. #7
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    are you saying Mormon's militia dressed as Native Americans to throw off the settlers didn't attack the wagon train and then after the siege drug on for a number of days, a group of militia, under their flying a white flag and were allowed to enter the settler's encampment, convinced the settlers to depart their encampment and then once in a prearranged spot the militants massacred them?

    quote: Today, historians attribute the massacre to a combination of factors, including war hysteria about possible invasion of Mormon territory and hyperbolic Mormon teachings against outsiders, which were part of the excesses of the Mormon Reformation period. Scholars debate whether senior Mormon leadership, including Brigham Young, directly instigated the massacre or if responsibility lay with the local leaders in southern Utah. unquote.

    mate's quote: We have an obligation to our national security to understand our enemies; but we also have an obligation to our principles not to convict by association—not to confound our Islamist enemies with our Muslim allies and fellow citizens. unquote. i am sure, those who lost their families and loved ones in 1857 felt the same sentiment.

    difference is at that time of the massacre, Mormonism was < 30 years old and experienced such shameless violence because of a 'singular' group of followers, now, almost 200 years later, how many sects of the dogma do you have now?

    13 centuries into Islam, the belief has more divergent facets then can be imagined, as has the other major dogmas of the world.

    you have a group claiming they perpetrated cowardly acts, based on who cares under what ever pretense they say to justify their actions are nothing more or less then cowards killing people and spreading fear and mayhem leading to a loss of stability.

    when sandy hill, VA tech, or, or, occurred...nobody stated...darn religious zealots...same here...call them cowards as that is what they are...

    ipse

    sorry forgot to attach the interesting read on the Mormon massacre ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
    Last edited by solus; 03-22-2016 at 05:01 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    are you saying Mormon's
    It is clear your only defense against the claims that the doctrines of Islam permit or encourage terrorism against innocent persons is to attempt to disparage and degrade other faiths that clearly have no such doctrines and no evidence of such doctrines causing violence for well over a century. Such attempts at misdirection are deserving of scorn and ridicule.

    This isn't an MSNBC comment board and appeals to political correctness are recognized for the folly they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    you have a group claiming they perpetrated cowardly acts, based on who cares under what ever pretense they say to justify their actions are nothing more or less then cowards killing people and spreading fear and mayhem leading to a loss of stability.
    Only a fool is willfully ignorant of what motivates his enemies. Such ignorance is very costly in wartime as we saw with the horrible loss of life after surrendering Corregidor to the Imperial Japanese. Someone in the chain of command should have known how Japanese culture regarded those who surrendered. Fortunately, by the end of the war, someone had figured it out and didn't attempt to repeat Iwo Jima on the main Japanese islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    when sandy hill, VA tech, or, or, occurred...nobody stated...darn religious zealots...same here...call them cowards as that is what they are...
    Was there any religious motivation to those attacks at all?

    I recall Randy Weaver being branded a white supremist.

    I remember the Branch Davidians being labeled as religious zealots looking forward to the Apocalypse.

    When Texas authorities raided the FLDS community in Waco and seized all the children, there was no lack of coverage of the religious motivation for polygamous marriages including underage forced marriages.

    No one shies away from discussing the religious motivations at work at the CoolAid party at Jonestown, or among the HallyBob Comet folks.

    But mention Islam and terror attacks committed by those who yell "Allah hu Akabar" just before killing a bunch of innocent people, and some politically correct bed wetting apologist suddenly says that religion is irrelevant.

    When men tell me they want to kill me because their religious beliefs demand it, who am I to tell them they have their own motivation wrong? When they say I must die for blaspheme for depicting their Prophet (even in a positive light, but certainly if I depict him negatively), do you claim greater knowledge of their motivation than they, themselves voice?

    Now, can you make any rational defense against the observation that the doctrines of Islam permit, even encourage, violence against non-believers, or for blaspheme, or for any number of other offenses against purely religious law? I will happily accept citations to an English language translation of the Koran. I will also accept citations to the teachings (not merely TV interviews, but teachings contained in addresses aimed at the faithful) from Islamic religious authorities.

    You prattling on about the 19th century history of the Mormon Church, or even the ancient history of the Catholic Church, or 2000+ year old history of the Old Testament, does nothing to defend Islam.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 03-22-2016 at 07:52 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  9. #9
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Full Definition of disparage
    dis·par·ageddis·par·ag·ing
    transitive verb
    1: to lower in rank or reputation : degrade
    2: to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about
    Full Definition of degrade
    transitive verb
    1
    a : to lower in grade, rank, or status : demote
    b : to strip of rank or honors
    c : to lower to an inferior or less effective level <degrade the image quality>
    d : to scale down in desirability or salability
    2
    a : to bring to low esteem or into disrepute <his actions have degraded his profession>
    b : to drag down in moral or intellectual character : corrupt
    3, 4, 5 snip as not germane to the conversation.


    mate, i made no disparaging on degrading comments against the Mormon church, but rather stated facts as validated by the church itself:
    http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?...r-lds.html.csp
    http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_mount...smassacre.html

    now, the European targets hit have no Islamic religious symbolism nor would promote their religious rhetoric except revenge ~ the cowardly way with indiscriminate killing of innocents. they are hiding under what ISIS has promoted as a big lie with the world's populace having been sucked in on and they are in it for the sole purpose of $$$.

    and you have been sucked in as well...

    now, you can deny your religious history's events and the religious mentality and rational behind it...that is strictly your problem...but your church's leadership has begrudgingly come to grips with it as has other religious violence associated with the other major religions.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-22-2016 at 09:57 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Moderator, please close this thread.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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