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Thread: Missouri man charged after cops say he used handgun as hammer

  1. #1
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    Missouri man charged after cops say he used handgun as hammer

    Oh for Pete's sake a CCl holder uses gun butt as a hammer to tack a board on school grounds. The school has no hammers for him to borrow? Now CCL classes will have to add this example to a list of examples describing illegal use of guns: 'Please Do Not Use Your Gun As A Hammer.' 'Please Do Not Pistol Whip Someone.' etc...

    He could have cocked the hammer...bang! Please drive the 'stupid' out of the brains. Unbelievable.

    http://www.semissourian.com/story/2288980.html

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    ".... charged after bringing firearm to a school, in violation of MO Code Section 571.030.1" since his use of it as a hammer had nothing to do with anything.

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    Not guilty would be my verdict.

    What say you?

    Gonna nullify this garbage or whine about kids safety?

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    <chuckle>

    Well, many guns do come with hammers. Even those without hammers have strikers.

    So, what's the problem?


    How many times have we heard about gun enthusiasts, "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Now, suddenly using a gun to drive a real nail is a problem? Sheesh! Some people just can't be satisfied.



    C'mon, fellas. Lets hammer this out amongst ourselves. We gotta nail down the main concerns.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-25-2016 at 08:33 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    <chuckle>
    Well, many guns do come with hammers. Even those without hammers have strikers.
    So, what's the problem?
    How many times have we heard about gun enthusiasts, "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Now, suddenly using a gun to drive a real nail is a problem? Sheesh! Some people just can't be satisfied.
    C'mon, fellas. Lets hammer this out amongst ourselves. We gotta nail down the main concerns.

    punny you...now to your bad boy corner and think about what you did...(said humm'g pete Seeger's tune from 1956...)

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-25-2016 at 09:40 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    <chuckle>

    Well, many guns do come with hammers. Even those without hammers have strikers.

    So, what's the problem?

    How many times have we heard about gun enthusiasts, "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Now, suddenly using a gun to drive a real nail is a problem? Sheesh! Some people just can't be satisfied.

    C'mon, fellas. Lets hammer this out amongst ourselves. We gotta nail down the main concerns.
    I don't know. It seems like this guy is screwed. He should have bolted out of there and retrieved a hammer from home, you know, to avoid the nuts making him out to be a criminal.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    I don't know. It seems like this guy is screwed. He should have bolted out of there and retrieved a hammer from home, you know, to avoid the nuts making him out to be a criminal.


    And, I like how you kept your focus fastened on the thread topic.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    punny you...now to your bad boy corner and think about what you did...(said humm'g pete Seeger's tune from 1956...)

    ipse
    I'm not sure I get your drift. Are you trying to pin me down and restrict me?

    I'm waiting for an answer. (tap) (tap) (tap).
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-25-2016 at 11:42 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Some folks are just handy with a gun. Makes for a riveting topic
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Some folks are just handy with a gun. Makes for a riveting topic
    Are being on the level or are just a hole puncher ... I was just milling around and felt the drilling need to respond.?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 03-26-2016 at 01:48 AM.

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    I could see how banging in nails with a pistol could cause some hard wear on the finish.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    I could see how banging in nails with a pistol could cause some hard wear on the finish.
    What if he used finish nails?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  13. #13
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    Real tack driver?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    OMG enough with the nail gun jokes...they are all too common...besides the coppers don't make mistakes, often.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Make sure to us copper nails when nailing coppers:

    Last edited by MAC702; 03-31-2016 at 11:20 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member dkangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    ".... charged after bringing firearm to a school, in violation of MO Code Section 571.030.1" since his use of it as a hammer had nothing to do with anything.
    Actually no his crime was and should be brandishing the weapon not the fact that he had a concealed weapon on him. In either case it was a stupid thing to do:

    "(10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board; or ..."

    Later followed by:

    "4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state. "
    Last edited by dkangel; 03-30-2016 at 12:41 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Thank you for the correction.

    By the way... what is the MO Code section on brandishing and how does it apply in this situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Thank you for the correction.

    By the way... what is the MO Code section on brandishing and how does it apply in this situation?
    571.107.1 section (10)

    (10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board, unless the person with the concealed carry endorsement or permit is a teacher or administrator of an elementary or secondary school who has been designated by his or her school district as a school protection officer and is carrying a firearm in a school within that district, in which case no consent is required. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    Brandished is mentioned pretty much everywhere throughout the 571.107.1. The fact that he brandished it makes it a criminal offense.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Thank you for the correction.

    By the way... what is the MO Code section on brandishing and how does it apply in this situation?
    RSMo 571.030.1(4) is what many could describe as our "brandishing" definition in RSMo.

    http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/statht...ml?&me=571.030

    The term "brandished" is used only in 571.107 and no where else. Brandishing or brandish is not used anywhere in RSMo.

    Missouri seems to have it right, police response to a unholstered handgun is a different topic, the citizen must be found to have exhibited the firearm "in an angry or threatening manner." The plain reading of the statute would(should) not make it a violation to unholster a firearm for any non-threatening purpose. Resting you hand on your holstered firearm is not a violation under the language of the statute.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkangel View Post
    ... Brandished is mentioned pretty much everywhere throughout the 571.107.1. The fact that he brandished it makes it a criminal offense.
    I must not have been reading closely enough; to whom did he show the firearm in a threatening manner?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I must not have been reading closely enough; to whom did he show the firearm in a threatening manner?
    The last thing the gubmint wants is to get a more precise definition of a term that does not even exists in the RSMo (571.030.1). If I were he I would have my shark lawyer press the CA on this point to leverage a misdemeanor plea deal on the gat on skrool property.

    Unless he was hammering the tack in a "angry or threatening manner"...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The last thing the gubmint wants is to get a more precise definition of a term that does not even exists in the RSMo (571.030.1). If I were he I would have my shark lawyer press the CA on this point to leverage a misdemeanor plea deal on the gat on skrool property.

    Unless he was hammering the tack in a "angry or threatening manner"...
    They'll expand the time honored definition for this guy. 100% sure of this....if it survives countless and expensive appeals is another.

    For the C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N !!!!!!!!!!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I believe, that as a matter of American jurisprudence that when a term is not specifically defined in a state's law, that the dictionary (common) definition of the word or phrase is understood to be meant. In the case of 'brandishing' the accepted definition runs closest to:.....


    To wave or flourish (something, often a weapon) in a menacing, defiant, or excited way
    To wave or flourish (a weapon) in a triumphant, threatening, or ostentatious way
    To exhibit aggressively; "brandish a sword" - display, exhibit, expose - to show, make visible or apparent
    To wield boldly and dramatically: flourish, sweep, wave.
    To make a public and usually ostentatious show of:

    From the above, I would think that mere visibility isn't 'brandishing' without a severe recharacterization of the phrase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I believe, that as a matter of American jurisprudence that when a term is not specifically defined in a state's law, that the dictionary (common) definition of the word or phrase is understood to be meant. In the case of 'brandishing' the accepted definition runs closest to:.....


    To wave or flourish (something, often a weapon) in a menacing, defiant, or excited way
    To wave or flourish (a weapon) in a triumphant, threatening, or ostentatious way
    To exhibit aggressively; "brandish a sword" - display, exhibit, expose - to show, make visible or apparent
    To wield boldly and dramatically: flourish, sweep, wave.
    To make a public and usually ostentatious show of:

    From the above, I would think that mere visibility isn't 'brandishing' without a severe recharacterization of the phrase.

    I'm gonna say it wasn't the way he was holding it that constitutes brandishing, but the way he was using it.

    using a firearm, loaded, as a hammer could be construed as being used in a threatening manner, to either self or others. especially because of the chance for a ND from such use.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Yeah, no....
    A negligent discharge isn't necessarily 'threatening' and current jurisprudence demands 'guilt beyond a reasonable doubt'. You, yourself recognize there is a reasonable doubt by the use of "... could be construed as..."

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