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Thread: Best Wishes This Easter

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    Best Wishes This Easter

    May you find peace in Christ's demonstration of The Resurrection--that a man has the capacity for Eternal Life, that the thing behind the eyes that is aware of itself is immortal.

    And, may you find peace in Christ's message of Redemption.

    May your reflections bear fruit and bring you new understandings.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-26-2016 at 10:40 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Redemption is the problem.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Redemption is the problem.....
    I'm not sure I follow. Tell me more.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Best Wishes This Easter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    May you find peace in Christ's demonstration of The Resurrection--that a man has the capacity for Eternal Life, that the thing behind the eyes that is aware of itself is immortal. And, may you find peace in Christ's message of Redemption. May your reflections bear fruit and bring you new understandings.
    Thank you, and upon you Peace. Shalom aleichem.

    The survival of the discorporate ego is my fundamental challenge question to my faith, requiring conviction without evidence.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    "easter" would be Dec 25th



    Eater is not a Christian holiday.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Redemption is the problem.....
    How is that? Redemption is common to world religions, all Abrahamic religions enjoy it, Christianity and Islam. It is an essential feature of Western penology.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Have a blessed Easter / Resurrection Sunday.

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    Was a beautiful sunrise service here in Dallas.


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    'tis a shame after all these centuries the pettiness between the myths can't agree on a singular time to celebrate...

    according to lore of olde:
    quote:
    During the first three centuries of Christianity, there was no universal date for celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Churches in various parts of the world followed different traditions. Some Christians celebrated Pascha on the first Sunday after Jewish Passover and others celebrated the feast at the same time as Passover. In order to come up with one unified date for celebrating Pascha, the Holy Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council in 325 AD took up the issue. The formula is this: Pascha is to be celebrated on the first Sunday, after the first full moon, following the vernal equinox, but always after Jewish Passover. This formula was universally accepted by all of Christianity, ensuring that Pascha was celebrated on the same day throughout the world.

    ...in modern times, the Western Church has rejected the part of the Nicene formula that requires that Pascha “always follow the Jewish Passover.” unquote http://usa.greekreporter.com/2015/04...-catholic-one/

    (1532 ~ basically, the first sunday after the first full moon following the equinox)

    enjoy your universal floating date...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-27-2016 at 10:24 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    color of law
    Redemption is the problem.....
    I'm not sure I follow. Tell me more.
    Christ's message of Redemption is the act of saving people from sin and evil. Apparently most government employees believe that their evil acts will be forgiven. It is not just the government, it's man in general. Over the years I've known a number of business persons that claimed to be born again, yet had no conscience of right or wrong.

    Yes, Jesus paid the price for our release from sin and its consequences. But, most christens are not christen at all; just because they believe they have been saved does not mean they, in fact, have been saved. Hence, redemption is the problem.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    May you find peace in Christ's demonstration of The Resurrection--that a man has the capacity for Eternal Life, that the thing behind the eyes that is aware of itself is immortal.

    And, may you find peace in Christ's message of Redemption.

    May your reflections bear fruit and bring you new understandings.
    Thank you Citizen, this is a very thoughtful and uplifting post.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Christ's message of Redemption is the act of saving people ...
    Redemption is, in a word, forgiveness. Sola fide
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    (self-deleted: I quoted the wrong post)
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-27-2016 at 11:39 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Christ's message of Redemption is the act of saving people from sin and evil. Apparently most government employees believe that their evil acts will be forgiven. It is not just the government, it's man in general. Over the years I've known a number of business persons that claimed to be born again, yet had no conscience of right or wrong.

    Yes, Jesus paid the price for our release from sin and its consequences. But, most christens are not christen at all; just because they believe they have been saved does not mean they, in fact, have been saved. Hence, redemption is the problem.
    Oh, my.

    My friend, can one really believe that redemption is God's to dispense?

    No, I seek not Redemption is His eyes. I seek redemption in my own.

    Is that not the ultimate office of personal responsibility? While He could redeem me--restore or elevate me to His glory, why would He? He did not commit my errors. He did not commit my harms. To redeem me Himself, without me first redeeming myself, is a violation of personal responsibility. No. I cannot believe even He would allow me to lie to myself or evade my responsibility for my own harms committed and omitted against others and Him. He cannot possibly not know that it is not His ideas that count the most on this question. He cannot possibly not know that it is my own certainty of harms committed, my own attributions against myself that are the falling short of His glory in my own eyes.

    Both God and I know to a complete certainty who committed my harms.

    Were He to allow me to accept and believe a sufficiency in His redemption in His own eyes before I redeemed myself, He would be shortchanging me. And, that I cannot in any way accept--that He would shortchange even one immortal soul.

    No. Redemption cannot possibly be His to dispense. He would have to erase from our minds our own experiences--our own harms; and wave a hand of Redemption. I think He is much, much more sophisticated than that. If I can see beyond a simplistic explanation of Redemption, I know He can.

    My money says that at a minimum He offers to Redeem me as a way to encourage me to redeem myself in my own eyes. Failing that, there is no point but to say that He erases my experiences and allows me to pretend I never harmed anyone. No, no. I cannot accept that about God, the Architect of human nature.

    I suspect. No, I hold. That He will not Redeem me in His eyes until after I redeem myself in my own. To hold otherwise is to say He will allow me to evade, dodge, justify, and rationalize my harms against others and Him. And, since that cannot possibly be recognition of personal causation, it cannot possibly be the road to anywhere but more self lies.

    And, if He is anything, He is Truth.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Wow!!!

    That is some pretty clear and reasonable thought going on their Citizen...

    I am not a believer, or am i, not sure, always, but, you make me think.

    It is good...
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Oh Happy Easter from The Federalist. Did St. Paul witness the Crucifixion?

    Did The Apostle Paul Witness Christ’s Crucifixion?
    Something extraordinary happened to convince many people, including early Christian persecutor Paul, that their messiah had risen.
    [ ... ]
    The Politics of Sentencing Christ to Death
    Yet the gospel accounts describe Pilate’s response as passive when Jesus is presented for execution, in spite of the Sanhedrin’s accusation of sedition. In particular, John 19:12 declares that failure to judge Jesus harshly signals disloyalty to the emperor. This taunt hints at a threat by the Sanhedrin to send a delegation to Tiberius, which Pilate takes seriously. Why would such a warning induce Pilate to reconsider the decision by the Jewish religious authorities? Some background is in order.

    http://thefederalist.com/2016/03/25/...s-crucifixion/

    The excerpt is relevant to my comment elsewhere on OCDO that the contemporary standard of proof was of two witnesses of sufficient stature as remarked in James Franklin's The Science of Conjecture: Evidence and Probability Before Pascal
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, my.

    My friend, can one really believe that redemption is God's to dispense?

    No, I seek not Redemption is His eyes. I seek redemption in my own.

    Is that not the ultimate office of personal responsibility? While He could redeem me--restore or elevate me to His glory, why would He? He did not commit my errors. He did not commit my harms. To redeem me Himself, without me first redeeming myself, is a violation of personal responsibility. No. I cannot believe even He would allow me to lie to myself or evade my responsibility for my own harms committed and omitted against others and Him. He cannot possibly not know that it is not His ideas that count the most on this question. He cannot possibly not know that it is my own certainty of harms committed, my own attributions against myself that are the falling short of His glory in my own eyes.

    Both God and I know to a complete certainty who committed my harms.

    Were He to allow me to accept and believe a sufficiency in His redemption in His own eyes before I redeemed myself, He would be shortchanging me. And, that I cannot in any way accept--that He would shortchange even one immortal soul.

    No. Redemption cannot possibly be His to dispense. He would have to erase from our minds our own experiences--our own harms; and wave a hand of Redemption. I think He is much, much more sophisticated than that. If I can see beyond a simplistic explanation of Redemption, I know He can.

    My money says that at a minimum He offers to Redeem me as a way to encourage me to redeem myself in my own eyes. Failing that, there is no point but to say that He erases my experiences and allows me to pretend I never harmed anyone. No, no. I cannot accept that about God, the Architect of human nature.

    I suspect. No, I hold. That He will not Redeem me in His eyes until after I redeem myself in my own. To hold otherwise is to say He will allow me to evade, dodge, justify, and rationalize my harms against others and Him. And, since that cannot possibly be recognition of personal causation, it cannot possibly be the road to anywhere but more self lies.

    And, if He is anything, He is Truth.
    Of course it is...we are talking about God after all. I humbly defer to He as to what He decides to do, or not do. All I can do is keep on keeping on and hope for the best. When He gets around to looking me in the eye and asking "What have you done?" I will tell Him that I did my best, He will then decide if I did my best.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, my.

    My friend, can one really believe that redemption is God's to dispense?

    No, I seek not Redemption is His eyes. I seek redemption in my own.


    Is that not the ultimate office of personal responsibility? While He could redeem me--restore or elevate me to His glory, why would He? He did not commit my errors. He did not commit my harms. To redeem me Himself, without me first redeeming myself, is a violation of personal responsibility. No. I cannot believe even He would allow me to lie to myself or evade my responsibility for my own harms committed and omitted against others and Him. He cannot possibly not know that it is not His ideas that count the most on this question. He cannot possibly not know that it is my own certainty of harms committed, my own attributions against myself that are the falling short of His glory in my own eyes.

    Both God and I know to a complete certainty who committed my harms.

    Were He to allow me to accept and believe a sufficiency in His redemption in His own eyes before I redeemed myself, He would be shortchanging me. And, that I cannot in any way accept--that He would shortchange even one immortal soul.

    No. Redemption cannot possibly be His to dispense. He would have to erase from our minds our own experiences--our own harms; and wave a hand of Redemption. I think He is much, much more sophisticated than that. If I can see beyond a simplistic explanation of Redemption, I know He can.

    My money says that at a minimum He offers to Redeem me as a way to encourage me to redeem myself in my own eyes. Failing that, there is no point but to say that He erases my experiences and allows me to pretend I never harmed anyone. No, no. I cannot accept that about God, the Architect of human nature.

    I suspect. No, I hold. That He will not Redeem me in His eyes until after I redeem myself in my own. To hold otherwise is to say He will allow me to evade, dodge, justify, and rationalize my harms against others and Him. And, since that cannot possibly be recognition of personal causation, it cannot possibly be the road to anywhere but more self lies.

    And, if He is anything, He is Truth.
    God decides who enters his kingdom, not you. You are not in charge. He has given you a path to salvation, but only he decides if you will receive it, not you. The totality of your life will be judged, not any one specific indiscretion. Do not judge, or you too will be judged; not by me, but by him.

    I have nothing further to say on the subject.

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    Martin Luther and Lutheranism's divide centered primarily on the doctrine of justification, often called the material principle. Justification, in Christian theology, is God's act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while at the same time declaring a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice. In Lutheranism, righteousness from God is viewed as being credited to the sinner's account through faith alone (sola fide), without words, works, or rites required.

    Sola fide, sola scriptura, sola gratia
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    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    nightmare, i will be soooo glad when you finish your current tome...

    just saying.

    ipse (solus has nothing to say about it)
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    God decides who enters his kingdom, not you. You are not in charge. He has given you a path to salvation, but only he decides if you will receive it, not you. The totality of your life will be judged, not any one specific indiscretion. Do not judge, or you too will be judged; not by me, but by him.

    I have nothing further to say on the subject.
    I apologize if I offended. That was not my intention.

    I think the totality of what I wrote speaks to the viewpoint/attitude.

    Yes, He decides who gets entrance into His Presence and who doesn't. But, lets keep that in perspective. It is literally the First Amendment right of association. If He cares not to associate with sinners, then He has the same right as I to not associate with sinners. He gets to set His own ground rules on that point--who goes to Heaven and who is cast out.

    But, that is beside the point. Why would He or any other being Redeem another who did not first redeem himself in his own eyes? As I said before, it bypasses personal responsibility.

    And, I will add in this post, it is more than a little crude to assign to God responsibility for one's own harms.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I don't believe there is any need to "redeem" oneself in one's own eyes in order to be redeemed by the redeemer. That would almost suggest that the redemption provided by Jesus is somehow not enough, but it is. All sin is sin against God, there is no sin that isn't against Him. It's his forgiveness that we truly need, not our own.

    I believe the peace being sought comes from the process of repentance, not any sort of self-redemption.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Well said. Read Martin Luther. He made himself sick trying to find sins to repent, and then he realized that the Covenant was for the forgiveness of all sin.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I don't believe there is any need to "redeem" oneself in one's own eyes in order to be redeemed by the redeemer. That would almost suggest that the redemption provided by Jesus is somehow not enough, but it is. All sin is sin against God, there is no sin that isn't against Him. It's his forgiveness that we truly need, not our own.

    I believe the peace being sought comes from the process of repentance, not any sort of self-redemption.
    I wasn't suggesting it. I was expressly saying it.

    Regarding your first sentence, that was not my intent. I wouldn't say the first is a necessary condition to the second. Certainly, I know of no such biblical requirement.

    However, I am betting the Architect of the human soul knows that His forgiveness alone cannot possibly release me from my own certainty about the harms I've committed.

    God: "I forgive you."

    Citizen: "Thanks. Mind if I spend the next two or three thousand years figuring out how to redeem myself in my own eyes?"

    God: "No. I've created this peaceful place, free of the push and shove of daily life, to give you the chance. In the end, you are responsible for your own thoughts, your own emotions, your own attitudes. As I promised, I did not monkey with those. In the same vein, I cannot now monkey with them. You, My child, must sort it out for yourself. Only you can do it. I can only provide you a safe, peaceful environment. And, My love and eternal support."
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-11-2016 at 09:46 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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