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Thread: self-defense actions academic study; Oregon v Washington after Delgado

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    self-defense actions academic study; Oregon v Washington after Delgado

    In terms of the practical effects . . . I am not sure if you are aware of these things, but in the 1984 decision of state v Delgado, the Oregon state Supreme court basically legalized all knife open-carry for Oregon.

    Oregon Crime Rates 1960 - 2014
    Oregon crime statistics, Oregon , Oregon rape, Oregon murder, Oregon property crime, Oregon crime index, Oregon ...
    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/orcrime.htm

    Washington Crime Rates 1960 - 2014

    Washington Crime Rates 1960 - 2014
    Washington crime statistics, Washington , Washington rape, Washington murder, Washington property crime, Washing...
    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/wacrime.htm

    Kleck and Tart did an analysis of the data from the National Crime victimization surveys from 1992 to 2002.
    Kleck analyzed the various possible self-protective actions, their absence or the absence of any self-protective action taking place during a rape, attempted rape and other sexual assaults.

    The report online says

    "This document is a research report submitted to the U.S. Department of Justice. This report has not been published by the Department. Opinions or points of view expressed are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice."
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/211201.pdf

    The Kleck study may be found at this url
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/211201.pdf

    It was paid for with a grant by the DoJ and afterwards, to the present apparently, not published by the DoJ. However, in the ideal of providing "better customer service," the NCJRS has placed the study results on the web.

    It seems however likely, that, although the numbers of those who took the actions of attacking with a weapon or brandishing a weapon are fewer than ten in the study, the dramatic difference in rape subsequent to taking the self-protective action of gun or other weapon brandishing or use compared to say, screaming, is due to the use or threatened use of the weapon.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-28-2016 at 01:05 PM. Reason: FUQ - rule #11

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    --snipped--
    I've worn an airsoft in a holster while walking for an hour and I did not wish to do it further because of the weight. Some people wearing firearms likewise don't like it because of the weight. Weight, liability from a wrongful or misplaced shot and creating apprehension in the minds of others are factors that sometimes lead people to not carry firearms.
    Quite a wall of text there - many won't take the time to read it all.

    Carrying an airsoft? Don't see that as a really good alternative/option.

    As for me, I'll bear the load, strive to minimize the liability, and hope to seriously deter a BG from proceeding against me.......and my very real 1911.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Quite a wall of text there - many won't take the time to read it all.

    Carrying an airsoft? Don't see that as a really good alternative/option.

    As for me, I'll bear the load, strive to minimize the liability, and hope to seriously deter a BG from proceeding against me.......and my very real 1911.
    +1

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Z...

    what is the purpose of your latest rant there doesn't appear to be a beginning nor an end...just a continuous tirade about something...

    i'll look it over after the ham is finished...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Quite a wall of text there - many won't take the time to read it all.

    Carrying an airsoft? Don't see that as a really good alternative/option.

    As for me, I'll bear the load, strive to minimize the liability, and hope to seriously deter a BG from proceeding against me.......and my very real 1911.
    what is your 1911, if I may ask?

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Z...

    what is the purpose of your latest rant there doesn't appear to be a beginning nor an end...just a continuous tirade about something...

    i'll look it over after the ham is finished...

    ipse
    1) to discuss the comparative crime rates of Oregon with other states with knife laws
    and
    2) to discuss the success rates of various forms of self-protective actions in the cases of rape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Quite a wall of text there - many won't take the time to read it all.

    Carrying an airsoft? Don't see that as a really good alternative/option.

    As for me, I'll bear the load, strive to minimize the liability, and hope to seriously deter a BG from proceeding against me.......and my very real 1911.
    Wall of text or whatever, the writings do do affect our rights.

    Why do people want to spit out stats when stats are not relevant?

    I guess people do like to argue against others' pleading stats...however, in respect to arguing about a right, stats are not needed to prevail. Indeed the stats are irrelevant.

    So what if guns and OC result in a net gain of the saving of 1 million people ? Does not matter.

    And what if it results in a net loss of 1 million lives? Again, does not matter.

    Want to play the stats game with an anti when one comes up and starts the "guns kill" mantra? Tell them this (true or not) : When I was in the military I killed many including many children, elderly, and handicapped people. I did not get reprimanded by our government but just the opposite - I got medals and commendations and have been called a "hero". So don't think the government cares about the lives of children or anyone else ~ remember this is the same government who ordered me to kill children. [I assure you that those people spouting stats in your face will discontinue doing so]. What you tell them would be pretty much true as well.

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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    Quite a wall of text there - many won't take the time to read it all.

    Carrying an airsoft? Don't see that as a really good alternative/option.

    As for me, I'll bear the load, strive to minimize the liability, and hope to seriously deter a BG from proceeding against me.......and my very real 1911.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    what is your 1911, if I may ask?
    It is my EDC, my friend and constant companion, my ballast. You do know what a 1911 is - right?

    Are you asking me for the complete nomenclature including modifications? Seems off topic, but if you really want to know send me a PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is my EDC, my friend and constant companion, my ballast. You do know what a 1911 is - right?

    Are you asking me for the complete nomenclature including modifications? Seems off topic, but if you really want to know send me a PM.
    I do not know the firearms well enough to have known that 1911 would mean a colt pistol.

    when I see 1611, I figure KJV authorized version . . . but I did not know that 1911 would mean a pistol!

    z

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    I do not know the firearms well enough to have known that 1911 would mean a colt pistol.

    when I see 1611, I figure KJV authorized version . . . but I did not know that 1911 would mean a pistol!

    z
    You really must get out more.

    The 1911 .45acp, designed by John Moses Browning, is arguably the most well known/famous semi-auto pistol to have ever graced the hand of man. Lo these many years, many firms have manufactured his design - it is not exclusive to Colt.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You really must get out more.

    The 1911 .45acp, designed by John Moses Browning, is arguably the most well known/famous semi-auto pistol to have ever graced the hand of man. Lo these many years, many firms have manufactured his design - it is not exclusive to Colt.
    Well one could argue that the Luger is but the 1911 is right next to it.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    Luger P08, pretty, sophisticated, aristocratic to be sure.

    The Walther P38 was the preferred sidearm for the fatherland due to its ease of manufacture, low cost to manufacture and double action.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Back on topic, please.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Ya coulda asked zaits to PM you to get a explanation. You start the OT then chide us to get back on topic...OK.

    All who used or brandished weapons were not raped.
    OK...good.

    Because the numbers of those using a gun or a non-gun weapon are fewer than 10 in rape cases, Kleck is unwilling to assign statistical significance to the fact that none of them were raped or suffered serious injury after brandishing their weapon in the process of the rape attempt.
    Typical pencil neck. 100% ... 100%, of those girls who woulda been raped except for their using a weapon that stopped the perp.

    I'm fairly confident that 100% of the time a lethal weapon is used to deter a rape it will deter a rape based on Kleck's data. I'll betcha those girls who deterred their rape would agree as well.

    Could there be a fair use issue with the op?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Could there be a fair use issue with the op?
    http://www.duplichecker.com/
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ya coulda asked zaits to PM you to get a explanation. You start the OT then chide us to get back on topic...OK.

    OK...good.

    Typical pencil neck. 100% ... 100%, of those girls who woulda been raped except for their using a weapon that stopped the perp.

    I'm fairly confident that 100% of the time a lethal weapon is used to deter a rape it will deter a rape based on Kleck's data. I'll betcha those girls who deterred their rape would agree as well.

    Could there be a fair use issue with the op?
    the study by Kleck was paid for by the Dept of Justice, which means, you and me as taxpayers. The NCJRS then decided not to formally publish the thing in print but to put the study research and conlusions online only, for the sake of customer service and the education of the public.

    "We" paid for the study and Kleck happens to believe that weapons use or brandishing is effective in stopping or detering a lot of crimes. His research on other topics was quoted by the Supreme court in the Heller decision.

    Kleck doesn't seem to own the copyright . . .

    This report has not been published by the U.S. Department of Justice.

    To provide better customer service, NCJRS has made this Federally funded
    grant final report available electronically in addition to
    traditional paper copies.

    I could be wrong, but I have a suspicion that the gov does not sue "you" for quoting the reports it pays for and publishes for public education, if "your" use of it is for public education. There are four main criteria in helping to determine if a use is fair use. One of them is the use you are putting to the material you are using, whether educational, commercial or other. Another of them is whether or not you or I reduce the economic sale value of the copyrighted work which is being excerpted or used in some way.

    Two of two in my favor . . . in terms of fair use.

    z

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    --snipped--

    Two of two in my favor . . . in terms of fair use.
    There is no vote on FUQs. Simply include the link - end of story.

    Rule #11, like the rest of the rules, has been instituted by the owners of this private property.

    In registering as a user here, one agrees to abide by the rules.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is no vote on FUQs. Simply include the link - end of story.

    Rule #11, like the rest of the rules, has been instituted by the owners of this private property.

    In registering as a user here, one agrees to abide by the rules.
    I assume you are referring to this link
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/211201.pdf

    which is shown twice in the opening post.

    It appears that I was in compliance with the rules regarding fair use . . . and one of your members raised a question about my conduct . . .

    and someone could have but perhaps declined to let him know that my links to the source were sufficient to be in compliance with the rules.

    Is that correct?
    Last edited by zaitz; 03-28-2016 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    I assume you are referring to this link
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/211201.pdf

    which is shown twice in the opening post.

    It appears that I was in compliance with the rules regarding fair use . . . and one of your members raised a question about my conduct . . .

    and someone could have but perhaps declined to let him know that my links to the source were sufficient to be in compliance with the rules.

    Is that correct?
    So . . .

    I write a post that complies with the rule or the rules and with federal copyright law . . .

    and some other fellow who posts raises the implication that I might be disobeying the rule or federal copyright law . . .

    and the rest of you folks respond by ?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    So . . .

    I write a post that complies with the rule or the rules and with federal copyright law . . .

    and some other fellow who posts raises the implication that I might be disobeying the rule or federal copyright law . . .

    and the rest of you folks respond by ?
    Federal copyright law is not the only consideration. Overly long posts play a part too.

    A review of the material was made and a decision rendered, which as previously mentioned is not subject to a vote. Yet you continue to object for no good purpose - the information is still available.

    Suggest that you not belabor the point further.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    So . . .

    I write a post that complies with the rule or the rules and with federal copyright law . . .

    and some other fellow who posts raises the implication that I might be disobeying the rule or federal copyright law . . .

    and the rest of you folks respond by ?
    Fair Use [Quote] that I referred to was clearly...because Grapeshot informed you as well...a real estate inquiry, not a copy right inquiry. RIF!
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    In terms of the practical effects . . . snip...
    Oregon Crime Rates 1960 - 2014
    Washington Crime Rates 1960 - 2014
    Kleck and Tart did an analysis of the data from the National Crime victimization surveys from 1992 to 2002.
    Kleck analyzed the various possible self-protective actions, their absence or the absence of any self-protective action taking place during a rape, attempted rape and other sexual assaults.
    The report online says
    "This document is a research report submitted to the U.S. Department of Justice. This report has not been published by the Department. Opinions or points of view expressed are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice."
    It was paid for with a grant by the DoJ and afterwards, to the present apparently, not published by the DoJ. However, in the ideal of providing "better customer service," the NCJRS has placed the study results on the web.
    It seems however likely, that, although the numbers of those who took the actions of attacking with a weapon or brandishing a weapon are fewer than ten in the study, the dramatic difference in rape subsequent to taking the self-protective action of gun or other weapon brandishing or use compared to say, screaming, is due to the use or threatened use of the weapon.
    finished the ham....now there is nothing in this rambling of words which i snipped down to get rid of the extraneous material which says a point, or counter point, or what point you were even trying to make.
    so you posted the the cite to the OR & WA crime rates w/o a single reference or discussion for comparison???

    so you posted the same cite twice from a 'research' grant so two PhD candidates attending FL State could qualify for their masters. it is common practice for candidates as part of the educational process to apply for grant money to subsidize their education. that the U.S. Department of Justice didn't publish it should be insight their management thought the report sucked!!

    btw, the report found on the internet does not constitute being published!!

    final note on the report...ethically the investigators are bound to advise readers if there is any financial conflicts of interest ~ which they did.


    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    1) to discuss the comparative crime rates of Oregon with other states with knife laws
    and
    2) to discuss the success rates of various forms of self-protective actions in the cases of rape.
    failed misrably since you didn't discuss a bloody thing


    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    the study by Kleck was paid for by the Dept of Justice, which means, you and me as taxpayers. The NCJRS then decided not to formally publish the thing in print but to put the study research and conlusions online only, for the sake of customer service and the education of the public.

    "We" paid for the study and Kleck happens to believe that weapons use or brandishing is effective in stopping or detering a lot of crimes. His research on other topics was quoted by the Supreme court in the Heller decision.

    Kleck doesn't seem to own the copyright . . .

    This report has not been published by the U.S. Department of Justice.

    To provide better customer service, NCJRS has made this Federally funded
    grant final report available electronically in addition to
    traditional paper copies.

    I could be wrong, but I have a suspicion that the gov does not sue "you" for quoting the reports it pays for and publishes for public education, if "your" use of it is for public education. There are four main criteria in helping to determine if a use is fair use. One of them is the use you are putting to the material you are using, whether educational, commercial or other. Another of them is whether or not you or I reduce the economic sale value of the copyrighted work which is being excerpted or used in some way.

    Two of two in my favor . . . in terms of fair use.

    z
    as for your last point the FL State report, while DoJ grant money funded their research, as stated...the DoJ doesn't want a thing to do with the document and even if they did ~ ownership, unless contractually negotiation as intellectual property transfer remains with the investigators.

    so it wouldn't be the gov who would sue you for misuse of the unpublished report the the investigators.

    so since you are keeping score...revise it to zero!!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Z...
    what is the purpose of your latest rant there doesn't appear to be a beginning nor an end...just a continuous tirade about something...
    i'll look it over after the ham is finished...
    ipse
    Quote Originally Posted by zaitz View Post
    I assume you are referring to this link
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/211201.pdf

    which is shown twice in the opening post.
    It appears that I was in compliance with the rules regarding fair use . . . and one of your members raised a question about my conduct . . .
    and someone could have but perhaps declined to let him know that my links to the source were sufficient to be in compliance with the rules.
    Is that correct?
    since i was the fourth poster i with minimal leap or faith, am presuming you are referring to me...please see my post...i reread my post and there is absolutely nothing about your conduct nor the lack of cites nor you failing to comply w/forum policies...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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