• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Seattle case shows why criminals don't open carry

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
for the record, my post's entire premise was based on MY erroneous belief ...

the gall is when poster(s) go back and change their post w/o showing what was changed/delete/added material then pretend it was that way from the beginning ~ something i believe you have recent experience doing...

My only experience is being falsely accused by a troll.

I doubt it is possible for anyone to find any material difference between what you did in this thread and what you accused me of doing in another thread. And I'm convinced that you lack the writing skills to even begin to explain the difference in terms beyond "what you did is bad what I did is ok".

Pretty hard to claim I was "pretend[ing] it was that way from the beginning" when I make clear the reason in the change comment, make a post for the express purpose of explaining why the first post was deleted, and then make a second post with corrections.

--moderated comments--
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Gentlemen - leave the personal comments outside and address the issue defined in the OP.

Thank you.
 

Alpine

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
671
Location
Idaho
Made no attempt to look for it. The first link on my search was an authoritative cite that readily confirmed the general thesis of the post (that most violent crime is committed by those with a prior record for violent crime) and one of his numbers (67%). Whether another study shows that 90% of murderers in some local like NYC had a prior record, compared to the 67% in the federal gov study seems to be nit-picky, especially when both numbers were cited.

Which leads me to ask what your intent was in asking for the citation? Is there something material you don't believe? Do you just want to prove another poster is wrong on some non-material point? Do you just want to bog down discussion with needless demands for a citation? There are legit reasons to ask for a cite, and then there are entirely irrelevant, unproductive demands just because you think you are entitled.

And in any event, why the constant need to express yourself in the fashion you do? Do you read your posts? Do you hear how they sound? Or are you completely tone deaf?

What is wrong with simply typing, "Can you please provide a link to the NYT's study?" At least the first time.

Finally found that site for the 90% figure.
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=2472


Mixon was not an anomaly. Felons commit over 90 percent of murders, with the remainder carried out primarily by juveniles and the mentally unbalanced... ...Notably, only 15 percent of all Americans have criminal records, yet more than 90 percent of murder suspects have a history of crime. Their criminal careers average six or more years’ length, including four major adult felonies, in addition to their often extensive juvenile records...

A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders in that city between 2003 and 2005 found that “more than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.” Baltimore police records show similar statistics for its murder suspects in 2006. In Milwaukee, police reported that most murder suspects in 2007 had criminal records, while “a quarter of them [killed while] on probation or parole.” The great majority of Illinois murderers from the years 1991–2000 had prior felony records. Eighty percent of Atlanta murder arrestees had previously been arrested at least once for a drug offense; 70 percent had three or more prior drug arrests—in addition to their arrests for other crimes.

In sum, guns or no guns, neither most murderers nor many murderers—nor virtually any murderers—are ordinary, law-abiding, responsible adults. This conclusion is so invariably reached by homicide studies that the 1998 study by David Kennedy and Anthony Braga describes the fact that murderers are almost invariably veteran criminals as a standard “criminological axiom.”
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Finally found that site for the 90% figure.

Not that I disagree with Mr. Kates, but I have to wonder where he got his stats.

Do notice that the 90% figure is making a different claim than the 67% figure from the DOJ study. The DoJ found that 67% of murderers had a violent felony in their record, while Mr. Kates bases his claim on the fact that "90% of murderers in NYC and Baltimore "had criminal records."

In other words, we are looking at three different categories of criminal records: violent felons, all felons, and all those with a criminal record (which is probably taken to be everything from violent felonies right on down to minor misdemeanors, but usually excluding minor traffic violations and other infractions). We should also note that the DoJ study is nationwide, while Kates seems to be basing his numbers on two specific major urban areas.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that Kates misstated the "90% are felons" when the accurate statement would be "90% have criminal records".

In any event, whether 90% of 67%--and it is tough to argue with DoJ crime stats of this nature--the closing statement from Kates and the crux of Alpine's post remains materially valid:

In sum, guns or no guns, neither most murderers nor many murderers—nor virtually any murderers—are ordinary, law-abiding, responsible adults. This conclusion is so invariably reached by homicide studies that the 1998 study by David Kennedy and Anthony Braga describes the fact that murderers are almost invariably veteran criminals as a standard “criminological axiom.”

While the heat-of-the-moment, middle-class "he was also so quiet and polite" murderous lover cases make the news, they are the anomaly and not a rational basis for any broad public policy, much less infringements of any constitutionally enumerated individual rights.

If we want to dramatically reduce the number of murders (and other violent crimes) committed in this nation, the obvious place to focus is on the rather small number of individuals who engage in an escalating pattern of criminal activity. I'm sure the insurance industry has a couple of actuaries they could spare for a weekend to church the 100 years of available data to tell us where it makes the most sense to interdict this pattern and remove the criminals from society long term. My guess would be somewhere around the first violent felony is a good time to impose a 35 to 45 year sentence. I doubt very many murders are committed by 60 year olds.

Charles
 
Last edited:

Alpine

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
671
Location
Idaho
Something else to consider, I noticed when I was searching for this most of it is several years old, and much of the detailed stuff is from the Bush administration years. Call me crazy, but it looks like Obama's DOJ and FBI isn't interested in collecting recidivism data and/or making it available to the public.

As to why I think we all know the answer, Obama doesn't want any current gun control measures to succeed or for the public to identify ways to actually reduce gun crime because that would get in the way of the Big Picture.
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
..., Obama doesn't want any current gun control measures to succeed or for the public to identify ways to actually reduce gun crime because that would get in the way of the Big Picture.

It is clear that some 67%+ of murderers are prohibited persons who cannot legally possess a firearm. (If 67% have violent felonies on their record, then some additional number have other felonies or domestic violence misdemeanors, all of which make someone a prohibited person.)

The majority of murders committed using guns in this nation were committed by persons who were not legally allowed to touch a gun. They committed a felony the moment they picked up a gun; and in most cases, that gun was picked up hours--at least--before it was used to commit the murder.

Charles
 
Last edited:

Have Gun - Will Carry

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
290
Location
Kenosha County, Wisconsin
Something else to consider, I noticed when I was searching for this most of it is several years old, and much of the detailed stuff is from the Bush administration years. Call me crazy, but it looks like Obama's DOJ and FBI isn't interested in collecting recidivism data and/or making it available to the public.

As to why I think we all know the answer, Obama doesn't want any current gun control measures to succeed or for the public to identify ways to actually reduce gun crime because that would get in the way of the Big Picture.

Not to be a nitpicker, especially since I agree with you, but I have to say that phrase is one of my biggest pet peeves. In all my years on this planet, I have yet to see (or even hear about) a gun committing a crime. Unlike the morons who created that term and continue to use it, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that inanimate objects are incapable of committing crimes. Let's face it, these are all - every single one of them - people crimes, not "gun crimes".

Please don't use the language of gun-grabbers and their useful idiots... it only lends undue credence to their BS ideas and wrong-headed way of thinking, and it will embolden them to keep telling the same lies over and over.

But thanks for bringing this study to our attention!
 

Alpine

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
671
Location
Idaho
You're right, should have said firearm-related crime.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
The implement used to commit the crime is irrelevant. Some states have add on crimes such as Missouri with RSMo 571.015 and RSMo 571.030.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
Something else to consider, I noticed when I was searching for this most of it is several years old, and much of the detailed stuff is from the Bush administration years. Call me crazy, but it looks like Obama's DOJ and FBI isn't interested in collecting recidivism data and/or making it available to the public.

As to why I think we all know the answer, Obama doesn't want any current gun control measures to succeed or for the public to identify ways to actually reduce gun crime because that would get in the way of the Big Picture.

cited article quote: ...Illinois murderers from the years 1991–2000...; ...1998 study.... unquote

article published By Don B. Kates Jr. | Posted: Mon. April 6, 2009

uh alpine, this is in your opinion 'several years olde?

ipse

added: catching up with Mr. Kates, Jr., he does seem to be one of the good guys.
 
Last edited:
Top