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Thread: Thwarted an attempted car theft this morning.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Thwarted an attempted car theft this morning.

    Found someone inside my car this morning. Seems as though he was trying to steal it. I got sprayed in the face with something. Pulled gun from my backpack and gave chase announcing that he was under arrest. He got away, called the police. Offer who took my statement said that he was glad that I did not shoot while giving chase. He also thought that car theft was not a felony....

    9A.56.075
    Taking motor vehicle without permission in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of taking a motor vehicle without permission in the second degree if he or she, without the permission of the owner or person entitled to possession, intentionally takes or drives away any automobile or motor vehicle, whether propelled by steam, electricity, or internal combustion engine, that is the property of another, or he or she voluntarily rides in or upon the automobile or motor vehicle with knowledge of the fact that the automobile or motor vehicle was unlawfully taken.
    (2) Taking a motor vehicle without permission in the second degree is a class C felony.
    9A.56.068
    Possession of stolen vehicle.
    (1) A person is guilty of possession of a stolen vehicle if he or she possess [possesses] a stolen motor vehicle.
    (2) Possession of a stolen motor vehicle is a class B felony.
    But he did tell me that if I had shot the BG right after being sprayed with the unknown substance, that would have been justified.

    He also did not seem to know about the following RCW.

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide—By other person—When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
    Said that if I had shot the BG, for trying to steal my car, that it would have been man slaughter.

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    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 03-31-2016 at 04:21 PM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    glad you are all right after this morning's event. did you get looked after being sprayed in the face with the liquid?

    i shan't comment on responding LE's knowledge, but you might wish to FOIA and see what the report states and make a written commentary to the department's mgmt they need to assure training is up to speed.

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    glad you are all right after this morning's event. did you get looked after being sprayed in the face with the liquid?

    i shan't comment on responding LE's knowledge, but you might wish to FOIA and see what the report states and make a written commentary to the department's mgmt they need to assure training is up to speed.

    ipse
    Likely a FOIA request response would be "exempt due to current investigation".

    But they are not doing anything ... I would not have bothered to call the po po.

    Spraying the OP in the face was not very nice.

    Someone's mother has some explaining to do.

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    "Sprayed in the face" is a battery is it not?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "Sprayed in the face" is a battery is it not?
    I would assume so ... I'm sure the po po has their top guy working on it ...

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    announcing that he was under arrest.


    Lol, seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Lol, seriously?[/COLOR]
    I did not find that funny ... I've done it again and again .. usually once you state you are arresting someone then your rights under citizen's arrest kick in.

    Guess what the relief is in my state for an improper arrest performed (discounting any excessive force) ?

    To those who wish to know, they must tell me what relief to a person inappropriately arrested has in their state...

    All carriers should know this off the top of their head !
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 03-31-2016 at 05:56 PM.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Found someone inside my car this morning. Seems as though he was trying to steal it. I got sprayed in the face with something. Pulled gun from my backpack and gave chase announcing that he was under arrest. He got away, called the police. Offer who took my statement said that he was glad that I did not shoot while giving chase. He also thought that car theft was not a felony....





    But he did tell me that if I had shot the BG right after being sprayed with the unknown substance, that would have been justified.

    He also did not seem to know about the following RCW.



    Said that if I had shot the BG, for trying to steal my car, that it would have been man slaughter.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

    If you were in Spokane, King or Pierce Counties and you shot someone to prevent a felony the corrupt prosecutors in those jurisdictions would likely charge you with murder and/or manslaughter.

    We saw it with Gail Gerlach in Spokane County, we're seeing it with Min Kim in Pierce County, and we'll likely see Dan Satterberg do it to some property owner in King County.

    The corrupt prosecutors and courts in WA are eliminating half of RCW 9A.16.050 and hoping no one will notice.
    Last edited by Alpine; 03-31-2016 at 06:06 PM.

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    I did not find that funny ... I've done it again and again


    I find it hilarious. Tell me, where do you live, or what do you do, or how do you comport yourself day-to-day that causes you to attempt citizen's arrests "again and again"?

    All carriers should know this off the top of their head !


    Why? I'm not going to be arresting anyone.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    If you were in Spokane, King or Pierce Counties and you shot someone to prevent a felony the corrupt prosecutors in those jurisdictions would likely charge you with murder and/or manslaughter.

    We saw it with Gail Gerlach in Spokane County, we're seeing it with Min Kim in Pierce County, and we'll likely see Dan Satterberg do it to some property owner in King County.

    The corrupt prosecutors and courts in WA are eliminating half of RCW 9A.16.050 and hoping no one will notice.
    The officer said that it was due to the bad prosecutors without saying it flat out.

    He was not a fan of OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Found someone inside my car this morning. Seems as though he was trying to steal it. I got sprayed in the face with something. Pulled gun from my backpack and gave chase announcing that he was under arrest.
    Hmmmm. I wonder how that changes things.

    In one of his training materials, Massad Ayoob recommends never giving chase with a drawn gun. His analysis is basically that the departing crook is demonstrating an unwillingness to continue the fight--ending the justification for lethal force by the defender. Ayoob points out that a fleeing crook could be justified in turning and shooting the armed pursuer, thinking the pursuer is going to execute him. Suddenly the fleeing crook becomes justified in using lethal force for self-defense.

    But, if the pursuer is trying to effect an arrest, how might that change things? Now, this morning's car thief had already used a liquid weapon of some sort, so I'm thinking that probably justifies the drawn gun. But, what about other scenarios where the fleeing crook has clearly given up the fight, but is trying to evade arrest by his non-cop pursuer?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    ... I've done it again and again ..
    What a life you lead to have occasion to attempt a citizen's arrest "again and again".

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    All carriers should know this off the top of their head !
    Nope. Only wannabees.

    I'm not going to arrest or detain anyone. I'm going to avoid problems if at all possible. I'm going to de-escalate and leave a problem if I possibly can. Property is insured and can be replaced. If my or loved one's life or limb is in grave danger and de-escalation or escape cannot be effected, I will use what force is required to end the threat. Once the threat is ended, I'm done.

    If the badguy runs away, great. The threat is over and I can give a nice witness statement.

    Even better is if the badguy never tries anything with me.

    If the badguy wants to wet himself, drop all weapons, and flop down the on the ground, I'll take up a defensive position. But I'm not detaining anyone. I'm not arresting "suspects". I'm not investigating. If he decides to get up and run away, fine. The threat is over and I'm safe.

    All I'm doing is protecting innocent life and limb. Period.

    Police officers, and wannabee idiots can try to effect arrests.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    What a life you lead to have occasion to attempt a citizen's arrest "again and again".



    Nope. Only wannabees.

    I'm not going to arrest or detain anyone. I'm going to avoid problems if at all possible. I'm going to de-escalate and leave a problem if I possibly can. Property is insured and can be replaced. If my or loved one's life or limb is in grave danger and de-escalation or escape cannot be effected, I will use what force is required to end the threat. Once the threat is ended, I'm done.

    If the badguy runs away, great. The threat is over and I can give a nice witness statement.

    Even better is if the badguy never tries anything with me.

    If the badguy wants to wet himself, drop all weapons, and flop down the on the ground, I'll take up a defensive position. But I'm not detaining anyone. I'm not arresting "suspects". I'm not investigating. If he decides to get up and run away, fine. The threat is over and I'm safe.

    All I'm doing is protecting innocent life and limb. Period.

    Police officers, and wannabee idiots can try to effect arrests.

    Charles
    Insult noted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Insult noted.

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    Well, maybe he's never been a situation where a citizen's arrest is clear and unmistakably appropriate.

    He was just talking "ifs" ...

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    I ran down a fair number of criminals during my career.

    I don't plan to run down any more even through I can still due a decent mile.

    You put your self at a tactical disadvantage.

    The only reason I would give chase would be if they were carrying something very dear to me like a grand child.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I ran down a fair number of criminals during my career.

    I don't plan to run down any more even through I can still due a decent mile.

    You put your self at a tactical disadvantage.

    The only reason I would give chase would be if they were carrying something very dear to me like a grand child.
    +1
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    [ ... ]Police officers, and wannabee idiots can try to effect arrests. Charles
    Wouldn't it be better to use the OR conjunction than AND?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Likely a FOIA request response would be "exempt due to current investigation".

    But they are not doing anything ... I would not have bothered to call the po po.

    Spraying the OP in the face was not very nice.

    Someone's mother has some explaining to do.
    http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=42.56.240

    Maybe someone here can explain (2). It seems to me that the victim has a right to information gathered related to the crime committed. Then again these types of laws have no penalty attached for the holder of the information if they refuse to abide by the law.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    But, if the pursuer is trying to effect an arrest, how might that change things? Now, this morning's car thief had already used a liquid weapon of some sort, so I'm thinking that probably justifies the drawn gun. But, what about other scenarios where the fleeing crook has clearly given up the fight, but is trying to evade arrest by his non-cop pursuer?
    Under Washington state law, a properly conducted and lawful citizen's arrest differs from arrest by police in only three ways.

    First, the arrest must be immediate or not at all -- police can investigate then decide whether or not to arrest later, but a citizen's arrest is invalidated if you wait and then go looking for the guy.

    Second, a police officer can disarm anyone during a lawful arrest, but a citizen making an arrest may only disarm a police officer after he attempts to use his sidearm to resist arrest -- yes, this means that you could theoretically have an officer under arrest and handcuffed, but with all of his weapons still holstered on his belt, as absurd as that sounds. Disarming an officer is a crime unless he resists with the weapon or a judge orders you to disarm him.

    Third, a police officer has qualified immunity -- he cannot be sued in civil court for justified actions he performs during a lawful arrest. A lot of the time, even if the arrest is unlawful or he uses excessive force, he cannot be sued. But a citizen's arrest can be 100% justified, 100% proper, and the arrestee 100% guilty, but the citizen can still be sued by the criminal! Ideally the lawsuit wouldn't get very far, but judicial roulette can bankrupt you even if you do everything right.

    Other than those three differences, an arrest is an arrest is an arrest in Washington. If someone resists arrest, use of appropriate force is just as lawful in a citizen's arrest as in a police arrest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "Sprayed in the face" is a battery is it not?
    Assault. Washington state has no crime called battery. Instead, we have various degrees of Assault. Using a chemical spray like that would be second degree Assault, which is a class B felony (ten years in prison and/or $20,000 fine if convicted).
    Last edited by Difdi; 04-01-2016 at 07:47 AM.

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    RCW 9A.36.021
    Assault in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of assault in the second degree if he or she, under circumstances not amounting to assault in the first degree:
    (a) Intentionally assaults another and thereby recklessly inflicts substantial bodily harm; or
    (b) Intentionally and unlawfully causes substantial bodily harm to an unborn quick child by intentionally and unlawfully inflicting any injury upon the mother of such child; or
    (c) Assaults another with a deadly weapon; or
    (d) With intent to inflict bodily harm, administers to or causes to be taken by another, poison or any other destructive or noxious substance; or
    (e) With intent to commit a felony, assaults another; or
    (f) Knowingly inflicts bodily harm which by design causes such pain or agony as to be the equivalent of that produced by torture; or
    (g) Assaults another by strangulation or suffocation.
    (2)(a) Except as provided in (b) of this subsection, assault in the second degree is a class B felony.
    (b) Assault in the second degree with a finding of sexual motivation under RCW 9.94A.835 or 13.40.135 is a class A felony.
    I think you are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1 Man View Post
    Pulled gun from my backpack
    Why the he11 is your firearm in your bloody BACKPACK? I will give you a holster. This would have had a much better outcome had you been prepared. Off body carry is fine for transport, not so good, as you have discovered, for self defense. "Oh, Bad Guy, hold on a sec while I get my backpack".
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    RCW 9A.36.021
    Assault in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of assault in the second degree if he or she, under circumstances not amounting to assault in the first degree:
    (a) Intentionally assaults another and thereby recklessly inflicts substantial bodily harm; or
    (b) Intentionally and unlawfully causes substantial bodily harm to an unborn quick child by intentionally and unlawfully inflicting any injury upon the mother of such child; or
    (c) Assaults another with a deadly weapon; or
    (d) With intent to inflict bodily harm, administers to or causes to be taken by another, poison or any other destructive or noxious substance; or
    (e) With intent to commit a felony, assaults another; or
    (f) Knowingly inflicts bodily harm which by design causes such pain or agony as to be the equivalent of that produced by torture; or
    (g) Assaults another by strangulation or suffocation.
    (2)(a) Except as provided in (b) of this subsection, assault in the second degree is a class B felony.
    (b) Assault in the second degree with a finding of sexual motivation under RCW 9.94A.835 or 13.40.135 is a class A felony.
    Predicate elements not met.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Why not just close the door on his head a few times?

    YOU'RE

    *slam*

    UNDER

    *slam*

    ARREST

    *slam*

    I think that sends the message a lot more clearly and also makes for a much better story. Way better than chasing a guy who pepper sprayed you and yelling "You're under arrest, mkay"

  24. #24
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Why the he11 is your firearm in your bloody BACKPACK? I will give you a holster. This would have had a much better outcome had you been prepared. Off body carry is fine for transport, not so good, as you have discovered, for self defense. "Oh, Bad Guy, hold on a sec while I get my backpack".
    I was not wearing my holster going out to the car, I have since changed that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Why the he11 is your firearm in your bloody BACKPACK? I will give you a holster. This would have had a much better outcome had you been prepared. Off body carry is fine for transport, not so good, as you have discovered, for self defense. "Oh, Bad Guy, hold on a sec while I get my backpack".



    Maybe this is his backpack?

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