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Thread: Showing ID to police

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    Showing ID to police

    Good day. I joined today to ask a "simple" question.
    When asked to show ID does this imply that i can retain possession of my state issued document? Am i required to let the officer take possession of my documents? I ask because when I was much younger I was stopped for a traffic violation. When attempting to return my Driver License a gust of wind took hold of the license and it was lost. The officer was apologetic but I was without a license until it was replaced. This put me in the position of operating a vehicle without a license in my possession. I know that this seems like a simple situation but I live close to the "City of Brotherly Love" and the officers there still seem to think that they are God. The situation has improved some but a lot of the officers do not follow the laws. OC in the city requires you to have a LTCF as does carrying while in a vehicle. I see no reason that an officer needs to take possession of my documents, he or she has a pen and paper and can write down the information. I fully realize that this introduces a point of failure but the officer should take accurate notes.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keighvin View Post
    Good day. I joined today to ask a "simple" question.
    When asked to show ID does this imply that i can retain possession of my state issued document? Am i required to let the officer take possession of my documents? [ ... ] OC in the city requires you to have a LTCF as does carrying while in a vehicle. I see no reason that an officer needs to take possession of my documents, he or she has a pen and paper and can write down the information. [ ... ]
    The details are specific to your state law.

    The principles are; you agreed to surrender your DL on demand as a prerequisite to the privilege of driving. You may not be required to surrender your identity papers until your rights are forfeit under arrest. A demand for identification may be satisfied verbally. You can always assert your Fifth Amendment Right, but it must be done and Keep Your Big Mouth Shut. You WILL be arrested, and you must Demand a lawyer.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keighvin View Post
    Good day. I joined today to ask a "simple" question.
    When asked to show ID does this imply that i can retain possession of my state issued document? Am i required to let the officer take possession of my documents? I ask because when I was much younger I was stopped for a traffic violation. When attempting to return my Driver License a gust of wind took hold of the license and it was lost. The officer was apologetic but I was without a license until it was replaced. This put me in the position of operating a vehicle without a license in my possession. I know that this seems like a simple situation but I live close to the "City of Brotherly Love" and the officers there still seem to think that they are God. The situation has improved some but a lot of the officers do not follow the laws. OC in the city requires you to have a LTCF as does carrying while in a vehicle. I see no reason that an officer needs to take possession of my documents, he or she has a pen and paper and can write down the information. I fully realize that this introduces a point of failure but the officer should take accurate notes.
    Thank you.
    State specific query - moving it to the Pa. sub-forum
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    When RAS or PC is the cause for a vehicle stop, the cop can demand your DL. Period. Don't like it or afraid he might lose it? Then don't drive or drive w/o a license and pay the fines and other issues associated with driving w/o a license.

    Harsh but to the point.

    Welcome to the forum. You post had little stated to link to OCing .... seemed all relevant to driving.

    Make a copy of your DL ? Put it in a safety deposit box for safe keeping.

    http://www.theeditorialcartoons.com/...d.php?iid=7583
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-03-2016 at 01:54 AM.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    If you're worried about it get a lanyard, and/or put the license in a sleeve and weight it down. I don't think most officers would make you take off the lanyard, but at least that would prevent most windy day mishaps.

    ETA: drive carefully and you're unlikely to ever encounter this again. I've only been stopped one time in several decades.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 04-03-2016 at 03:08 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    If you're worried about it get a lanyard, and/or put the license in a sleeve and weight it down. I don't think most officers would make you take off the lanyard, but at least that would prevent most windy day mishaps.

    ETA: drive carefully and you're unlikely to ever encounter this again. I've only been stopped one time in several decades.
    That does not prove that you are a law abiding citizen....

    My father in-law had one ticket in his 90 years of life. Yet, I felt I was putting my life in jeopardy when I got in the car with him when he was driving.....So, not getting a ticket means nothing.....

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The driver's license belongs to the state. It is not your license even though you pay a user tax for the privilege to drive.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    That does not prove that you are a law abiding citizen....

    My father in-law had one ticket in his 90 years of life. Yet, I felt I was putting my life in jeopardy when I got in the car with him when he was driving.....So, not getting a ticket means nothing.....
    What actually invalidates my premise is that the one time I was stopped I wasn't speeding. I had cruise control set on 55mph +/- 1mph. The officer's radar picked up a Trailways Bus which sped by me at 72mph, but he was too late to catch them so he stopped me.

    It was in Gootchland county where they operate on a quota system and a car is as good as a bus for a ticket quota.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    What actually invalidates my premise is that the one time I was stopped I wasn't speeding. I had cruise control set on 55mph +/- 1mph. The officer's radar picked up a Trailways Bus which sped by me at 72mph, but he was too late to catch them so he stopped me.

    It was in Gootchland county where they operate on a quota system and a car is as good as a bus for a ticket quota.
    No, absolutely not. That stuff just does not happen. Quotas, you jest. Spreading these types of rumors does not move this nation forward. I can see a executive order being issued at any moment.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    No, absolutely not. That stuff just does not happen. Quotas, you jest. Spreading these types of rumors does not move this nation forward. I can see a executive order being issued at any moment.
    Are you using sarcasm font? I assure you it was a completely bogus stop, and I had been warned about Goochland county. (This was in the late 80s).

    Here's an article exposing them (in Chesapeake) in 2014:

    http://wtvr.com/2014/07/14/chesterfi...investigation/

    Goochland is even more notorious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The driver's license belongs to the state. It is not your license even though you pay a user tax for the privilege to drive.
    Well, that'll be their contention at least. In reality the state legitimately owns practically nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    What actually invalidates my premise is that the one time I was stopped I wasn't speeding. I had cruise control set on 55mph +/- 1mph. The officer's radar picked up a Trailways Bus which sped by me at 72mph, but he was too late to catch them so he stopped me.

    It was in Gootchland county where they operate on a quota system and a car is as good as a bus for a ticket quota.
    Sounds familiar. Radar said someone was speeding, so just pull over whatever vehicle is most convenient. I think it happens more often than any cop would like to admit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Are you using sarcasm font? I assure you it was a completely bogus stop, and I had been warned about Goochland county. (This was in the late 80s).

    Here's an article exposing them (in Chesapeake) in 2014:

    http://wtvr.com/2014/07/14/chesterfi...investigation/

    Goochland is even more notorious.
    I know of a case where an officer told someone he had stopped that if they write enough tickets they get a bonus. I guess he didn't realize that was bad, and didn't realize his department wouldn't want him sharing that information with the public.
    Advocate freedom please

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    When I was first becoming active with my local PD, academy and review board, I did a ride along with our ticket-nazi. His parents had been killed by a speeder and he had a true animus. He was expert with his radar and demonstrated to my satisfaction his ability to pick the fastest car out of a speeding pack. In our eight hour shift he wrote legitimate 40 speeding tickets.

    About DL, at fourthamendment.com there is a court case reported this morning that is captioned as a cop holding ones DL is coercion as the driver is not free to leave.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    When I was first becoming active with my local PD, academy and review board, I did a ride along with our ticket-nazi. His parents had been killed by a speeder and he had a true animus. He was expert with his radar and demonstrated to my satisfaction his ability to pick the fastest car out of a speeding pack. In our eight hour shift he wrote legitimate 40 speeding tickets.

    About DL, at fourthamendment.com there is a court case reported this morning that is captioned as a cop holding ones DL is coercion as the driver is not free to leave.
    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=21534
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    During a traffic stop, the driver is required to produce all three to the officer. That means...........give them to the officer. Just because the officer is holding your license doesn't mean you can't drive away. Of course, unless the officer said you were free to go, he's probably going to pursue you.

    Unless there are underlying circumstances, the courts have ruled a "normal" traffic stop cannot last beyond what has been deemed to be reasonable.
    Last edited by Steve in PA; 04-04-2016 at 08:36 AM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
    During a traffic stop, the driver is required to produce all three to the officer. That means...........give them to the officer. Just because the officer is holding your license doesn't mean you can't drive away. Of course, unless the officer said you were free to go, he's probably going to pursue you.

    Unless there are underlying circumstances, the courts have ruled a "normal" traffic stop cannot last beyond what has been deemed to be reasonable.
    could you define your use of the term 'all three' as it would be appreciated.

    unfortunately, the 'courts' and the nice LE who has you pulled over have different concepts over the term 'reasonable'...and the fight is on the citizens plate to spend the $$$$ and time pushing the shopping cart through the judicial gauntlet to only hear 'there is a new time limit for reasonable'.

    ipse
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Are you using sarcasm font? I assure you it was a completely bogus stop, and I had been warned about Goochland county. (This was in the late 80s).

    Here's an article exposing them (in Chesapeake) in 2014:

    http://wtvr.com/2014/07/14/chesterfi...investigation/

    Goochland is even more notorious.
    Me, being sarcastic? I'm limited to being sarcastic once a week. I have been accused of exceeding that limit on a number of occasions. If I do it again this week I'll violate the rule.
    Last edited by color of law; 04-04-2016 at 09:53 AM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Me, being sarcastic? I'm limited to being sarcastic once a week. I have been accused of exceeding that limit on a number of occasions. If I do it again this week I'll violate the rule.
    no and i will attest to his limited sarcastic personality, for the right price...

    (wait is that sarcasm ~ hummm)

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    When I was first becoming active with my local PD, academy and review board, I did a ride along with our ticket-nazi. His parents had been killed by a speeder and he had a true animus. He was expert with his radar and demonstrated to my satisfaction his ability to pick the fastest car out of a speeding pack. In our eight hour shift he wrote legitimate 40 speeding tickets.

    About DL, at fourthamendment.com there is a court case reported this morning that is captioned as a cop holding ones DL is coercion as the driver is not free to leave.
    That's not really hard to do .. is it?

    And I read that 4th-A.com article too ... that guy got off big time! Rightfully so IMO.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Me, being sarcastic? I'm limited to being sarcastic once a week. I have been accused of exceeding that limit on a number of occasions. If I do it again this week I'll violate the rule.
    Did someone say rule violation?

    Being sarcastic continuously 24/7 could be said to be "once a week."
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-04-2016 at 03:54 PM. Reason: restored partially droppen reply
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Did someone say rule violation?

    Being sarcastic continuously 24/7 could be said to be "once a week."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYCjqmbsmYA

    3rd party arbitration to resolve the dispute? I would name the Grazellas to arbitrate. Smart move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    could you define your use of the term 'all three' as it would be appreciated.

    unfortunately, the 'courts' and the nice LE who has you pulled over have different concepts over the term 'reasonable'...and the fight is on the citizens plate to spend the $$$$ and time pushing the shopping cart through the judicial gauntlet to only hear 'there is a new time limit for reasonable'.

    ipse
    All three as in; 1) driver's license, 2) registration card and 3) insurance card. The PA Vehicle Code says you are required to produce all three when required.

    The officer in the aforementioned article screwed the pooch. Either he did not know how long the courts have ruled a normal traffic stop should last or he plain ignored the ruling by the courts.

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    thanks steve...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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