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Thread: Police comment on constitutional carry

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    Regular Member NomadMan's Avatar
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    Police comment on constitutional carry

    Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police, made the following statement concerning the new bill allowing constitutional carry.

    "We just don't believe that it's a good idea for people to be carrying concealed weapons and not have participated in any training."

    This director is either an idiot or a liar as the current laws do not require any training for concealed carry. He either does now the law making him an idiot, or he knows it and lies about it to scare the public.

    Source: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Updat...Protection-Act


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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadMan View Post
    Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police, made the following statement concerning the new bill allowing constitutional carry.

    "We just don't believe that it's a good idea for people to be carrying concealed weapons and not have participated in any training."

    This director is either an idiot or a liar as the current laws do not require any training for concealed carry. He either does now the law making him an idiot, or he knows it and lies about it to scare the public.

    Source: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Updat...Protection-Act
    Suggestion: write to the reporter, copying him (Winter) in, make your point, then ask your question (politely) as to whether Mr. Winter is an idiot or a liar.
    Last edited by BB62; 04-02-2016 at 04:25 PM.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Suggestion: write to the reporter, copying him (Winter) in, make your point, then ask your question (politely) as to whether Mr. Winter is an idiot or a liar.
    Liar or both. MS pork squealed loud when OC was legalized and with off body permitless carry last year. They were wrong, of course, with their dire predictions, not that their predictions should have any bearing on the right.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadMan View Post
    Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police, made the following statement concerning the new bill allowing constitutional carry.

    "We just don't believe that it's a good idea for people to be carrying concealed weapons and not have participated in any training."

    This director is either an idiot or a liar as the current laws do not require any training for concealed carry. He either does now the law making him an idiot, or he knows it and lies about it to scare the public.

    Source: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Updat...Protection-Act


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    Whether it is a good idea for peaceful people to carry the means to self-defense is entirely separate from whether it is a good idea for government to have the power to prohibit it.

    The two do not equate.

    Although, I am sure the good Executive Director hopes you accept his hidden premise--that government can prohibit something just because government considers it "not a good idea."

    Isn't his idea delicious? More than five hundred years of fighting for rights, people fighting to get government off their backs, and it all comes down to whether exercising a given is a "good idea"?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    What's that old saying?

    "when I want to hear your opinion, I'll beat it outta ya?" LOL

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bb62 View Post
    suggestion: write to the reporter, copying him (winter) in, make your point, then ask your question (politely) as to whether mr. Winter is an idiot or a liar.
    ^^^what he said!!!^^^
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadMan View Post
    Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police, made the following statement concerning the new bill allowing constitutional carry.

    "We just don't believe that it's a good idea for people to be carrying concealed weapons and not have participated in any training."

    This director is either an idiot or a liar as the current laws do not require any training for concealed carry. He either does now the law making him an idiot, or he knows it and lies about it to scare the public.
    Actually, taken completely at face value, the director's words are very sage. It IS a bad idea for people to carry weapons without having received appropriate training. We all believe that training and safety are crucial.

    Where I suspect Mr. Winter parts company with this group is whether such training should be mandatory or otherwise a prerequisite to legally exercising one's rights to KBA. It is the implicit, contextual claim that government should mandate such training, that rights should suffer prior restraint, that causes our disagreement. I trust we are all very supportive of being well trained in safe handling, proper use, marksmanship, and even the legal aspects of carrying and using a gun. We just don't think good ideas should be mandated prior to being able to exercise rights.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Actually, taken completely at face value, the director's words are very sage. It IS a bad idea for people to carry weapons without having received appropriate training. We all believe that training and safety are crucial.

    Where I suspect Mr. Winter parts company with this group is whether such training should be mandatory or otherwise a prerequisite to legally exercising one's rights to KBA. It is the implicit, contextual claim that government should mandate such training, that rights should suffer prior restraint, that causes our disagreement. I trust we are all very supportive of being well trained in safe handling, proper use, marksmanship, and even the legal aspects of carrying and using a gun. We just don't think good ideas should be mandated prior to being able to exercise rights.

    Charles
    sorry mate, now even when you are in your 'royal WE mode', nor in any other way or shape are you now or will you ever speak about any subject matter for this member on this public forum, therefore, please refrain from doing so in the future.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 04-04-2016 at 03:14 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ..., nor in any other way or shape are you now or will you ever speak about any subject matter for this member on this public forum, therefore, please refrain from doing so in the future.
    If there is any member of this forum who actually thinks training is a bad idea, let him say so directly. Those who are contrary and argumentative simply for the sake of being difficult do not merit my concern.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    mate, there was no argument and this member did say directly, you do not speak your opinion for me on this public forum.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    mate, there was no argument and this member did say directly, you do not speak your opinion for me on this public forum.
    Given your typical ramblings, nobody speaks for you and I'm not sure you can even speak for yourself.

    As for argumentative, you're starting to remind me of the newspaper editor who declared to his staff, "Starting tomorrow whatever our cross-town rival is for, we're against. Whatever he opposes, we support."

    Hearing this, the cross town rival wryly told his staff, "We are now officially in favor of literacy and opposed to small pox."

    Don't be a twit. Nobody here opposes training.

    We opposes government mandated training and other prior restraints on our rights.

    If you actually disagree with that assessment, man up and say it directly rather than being obtuse or thinking you're clever with some riddle.

    If you don't disagree, stop getting your nose bent out of shape or looking for reasons to disagree just because you have personal issues with the guy who made the assessment. Simple put, grow up.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    not playing...ramble on...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    not playing...
    Hell, you started the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ramble on...
    Undoubtedly you will.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police, works for a organization that is most certainly not focused on preserving or expanding individual liberty. Like all cop unions the flow of dues into its coffers is paramount.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Required training to conceal carry

    I personally feel there should be some requirement for training. more than the required 40 rounds that I was required to fire in order to submit for my concealed weapons permit. We have to have drivers ed in many cities before we are allowed to drive.

    However, if they mandated training beforehand, somebody would just be making extra money at our expense. Maybe we should just have handgun safety in highschool along with drivers ed. For those in the rural communities they could combine the two courses and teach hunting from the confort of your 4X4

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Given your typical ramblings, nobody speaks for you and I'm not sure you can even speak for yourself.
    heh, I see I'm not the only one

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerBast View Post
    I personally feel there should be some requirement for training. more than the required 40 rounds that I was required to fire in order to submit for my concealed weapons permit. We have to have drivers ed in many cities before we are allowed to drive.

    However, if they mandated training beforehand, somebody would just be making extra money at our expense. Maybe we should just have handgun safety in highschool along with drivers ed. For those in the rural communities they could combine the two courses and teach hunting from the confort of your 4X4

    Michael


    Mandatory training is an infringement. Whether you agree to that infringement or not is up to you, but when you boil it down it is an infringement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    Mandatory training is an infringement. Whether you agree to that infringement or not is up to you, but when you boil it down it is an infringement.
    Agreed, mandatory training is an infringement.

    What about making it an elective course in high school?

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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    Agreed, mandatory training is an infringement.

    What about making it an elective course in high school?
    Make it a mandatory course in high school (with exceptions for sincere conscientious objectors).

    The federal constitution specifically reserves to the States the authority for training of the militia. Public high school seems a perfectly appropriate time to provide the basics of that training. Include sufficient info to cover hunter safety as well. And include sufficient legal training that those who pass the course are unlikely to ever run afoul of just laws governing the use of deadly force.

    The key point, of course, is that a high school diploma is not required to exercise our RKBA. But there are real advantages to having high school diploma (assuming the school has taught material of use). One advantage in this case would be reduced risk of ignorantly committing a crime involving a gun, of having an ND, or otherwise being untrained in the proper and legal handling, maintenance, and use of firearms.

    Society has as much interest in making sure its members are properly trained in firearms as we do in teaching kids math, English, and history.

    But if someone wants to exercise his RKBA having dropped out of school or failed the gun training provided in public schools (or attended a private/home school where such training was absent), that is his right. He simply assumes the personal liability of carrying a gun without having had that training. Maybe he has chosen to get formal training elsewhere. Maybe he was raised with guns and properly trained by parents. Maybe he is untrained.

    Bottom line, he gets to exercise his rights until such time as he demonstrates he can't. Then he suffers legal consequence for his conduct. But no prior restraint.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 04-05-2016 at 01:53 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    he clearly doesnt care about his oath to the Constitution and should be immediately struck off. Any anti gun statement is unamerican. he may have the right to it but he must still uphold the absolute right to bear arms
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerBast View Post
    I personally feel there should be some requirement for training. more than the required 40 rounds that I was required to fire in order to submit for my concealed weapons permit. We have to have drivers ed in many cities before we are allowed to drive.

    However, if they mandated training beforehand, somebody would just be making extra money at our expense. Maybe we should just have handgun safety in highschool along with drivers ed. For those in the rural communities they could combine the two courses and teach hunting from the confort of your 4X4

    Michael
    I personally feel that you have no idea why we have the unconstitutional laws that exist now.

    Who would require the training? The government? I bet you even wonder how government has gotten so big.

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    snippp...

    Who would require the training? The government? I bet you even wonder how government has gotten so big.
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Actually, taken completely at face value, the director's words are very sage. It IS a bad idea for people to carry weapons without having received appropriate training. We all believe that training and safety are crucial.

    snip... that government should mandate such training, that rights should suffer prior restraint, that causes our disagreement. I trust we are all very supportive of being well trained in safe handling, proper use, marksmanship, and even the legal aspects of carrying and using a gun. snipp

    Charles
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    If there is any member of this forum who actually thinks training is a bad idea, let him say so directly. Those who are contrary and argumentative simply for the sake of being difficult do not merit my concern.


    georg...might cut perbast a break as the bloke from UT quoted above, publicly & as well as unequivocally stated "WE" (read as speaking for the collective of all the OCDO forum members) believe training is necessary before citizens receive carry weapons.


    for the record georg, if you check i stated in a follow-up rebuttal post that the good bloke from UT didn't speak or express opinions for this gentle soul on this public forum.


    unfortunately, as you can see from his last post quoted above, I also caught grief in a his follow-up post from the good mate from UT when i stated i directly do not want you to speak for me and then he reiterated his mandatory training sentiment again.

    so...there ya have it one individual spoke for the whole forum and now there are shades of those who don't want mandatory training

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 04-06-2016 at 02:21 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ... He simply assumes the personal liability of carrying a gun without having had that training. ...
    What liability should we be relieved of if we are "properly" trained?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What liability should we be relieved of if we are "properly" trained?
    trained or not trained...sorry what liability does a OC'r incur per se, let alone have to seek relief from?

    sooo...if, in a SD incident, my know homeowner's isn't going to contribute anything, nada, to any juridical or civil proceedings resulting from any errors in judgement (not enough training in the world can mitigate those miscalculations) nor will the secondary policies sold....so why not provide immunity such as the nice LEs are afforded unless the event is egregious, then the individual loses their immunity and goes to jail.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What liability should we be relieved of if we are "properly" trained?
    Obviously this isn't a matter of "should" but simply of "being".

    Proper training relieves a man of the liability of being ignorant and/or incompetent.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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