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Thread: would u find this guy guilty knowing it would be a 30+yr sentence - Poll it !

  1. #1
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    would u find this guy guilty knowing it would be a 30+yr sentence - Poll it !

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/31247716...m_content=link

    According to his lawyer, those five previous convictions totalled less than $500 for incidents at Rite-Aid, Sav-A-Center, Blockbuster Video and Rouses stores.


    Vote ... a) convict the guy and send him up the river for 30+yrs
    b) not convict him
    Assuming evidence is 100% regarding him stealing $31 in candy ...

  2. #2
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    Jury nullification.* Not guilty.

    Then demand restitution, and genuine assistance for the offender. Not prison time. Obviously, prison/jail didn't work the first time.




    *The ancient right of a jury to determine the justness of the law, too. If you read just the first section of Lysander Spooner's essay Trial by Jury (1840?), you will know more about the function of juries than 95% of Americans. Really. Its that simple. Just google the essay, read Section I, and you're way ahead of most people. It takes less than ten minutes to read Section I.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
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    It seems shorter jail terms have not corrected his behavior and he continues to steal from innocent victims. And a pocketful of candy bars doesn't suggest he is feeding a starving child at home, but rather that he simply doesn't respect others' private property.

    He did the crime, he can do the time on this; though I'd prefer the sentence include sufficient labor that he pays his own way rather than simply continuing to be a parasite on the hind side of humanity.

    Frankly, I'm tired of so-called "petty" thieves being allowed to continue engaging in crime because the penalty never seems to be enough to dissuade them.

    And maybe, the sentence prevents him from escalating to using grave violence when someone tries to prevent him from stealing their property. Do you think home invaders start with invading occupied homes? Or do many of them start with shop lifting and smash and grabs from unattended cars? This one got caught enough times to warrant a severe penalty. Impose it. Maybe he can behave well enough in prison to get some credit for good behavior.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 04-04-2016 at 09:00 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  4. #4
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    train him, find housing for him, put him to work, but do not send him to jail, especially since that is where he wants to go as he is comfortable, clothed, fed, as well as medically treated better than the vets.

    quote: Not many issues can unite Democrats and Republicans. But criminal justice reform is one of them. After 30 years of being Tough on Crime in the U.S., no other nation incarcerates more of its citizens than we do. We have five percent of the world's population, but 25 percent of its prisoners. The cost of housing all those inmates: $80 billion a year. unquote.

    60 minutes did a segment last sunday...quite interesting.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minut...nd-punishment/

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    no other nation incarcerates more of its citizens than we do. We have five percent of the world's population, but 25 percent of its prisoners. The cost of housing all those inmates: $80 billion a year. unquote.
    And the cost of letting them roam free in civilized society? What is an innocent human life worth? My local news recently carried the story of 4 men arrested for raping a 9 year old girl while her mother was busy smoking meth. Ya figure this was the first offense for these predators?

    Perhaps not merely coincidentally, we've seen a dramatic decrease in violent crime in this nation over the last 20 years as we've gotten tough on crime. Why did we get tough on crime? Because bleeding heart liberal policies of treating criminals with kid gloves might have had something to do with the massive spike in violent crime starting in the late 60s and peaking in the mid-90s.

    I presume we all carry guns to defend ourselves knowing that sick and twisted violent animals roam among us. I'd far prefer they get a fair trial and appropriate jail sentence than that I ever have to defend myself with deadly force against someone with a long and escalating criminal history.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    And the cost of letting them roam free in civilized society? What is an innocent human life worth? My local news recently carried the story of 4 men arrested for raping a 9 year old girl while her mother was busy smoking meth. Ya figure this was the first offense for these predators?

    Perhaps not merely coincidentally, we've seen a dramatic decrease in violent crime in this nation over the last 20 years as we've gotten tough on crime. Why did we get tough on crime? Because bleeding heart liberal policies of treating criminals with kid gloves might have had something to do with the massive spike in violent crime starting in the late 60s and peaking in the mid-90s.

    I presume we all carry guns to defend ourselves knowing that sick and twisted violent animals roam among us. I'd far prefer they get a fair trial and appropriate jail sentence than that I ever have to defend myself with deadly force against someone with a long and escalating criminal history.

    Charles

    How on God's green Earth did you equate a repeat shoplifter with a rapist of 9-year olds?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    How on God's green Earth did you equate a repeat shoplifter with a rapist of 9-year olds?
    the mate's way...

    sad part his query would have been answered before he posted if he had only taken a few minutes and viewed the 60 minutes segment...sigh

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  8. #8
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    Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.
    Interesting thread. I'm glad you started it.

    It prompts the question, "What is the approach to the correct solution?"

    Of course, we'll get all the emotional, knee-jerk "solutions" (and have already gotten one).

    But, really, how would a genuinely humane society concerned about both the rights of the victim and the human-ness of the perpetrator go about creating a policy or procedure that addressed all concerns? That is to say, what would be that point wherein all interests coincide?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Interesting thread. I'm glad you started it.

    It prompts the question, "What is the approach to the correct solution?"

    Of course, we'll get all the emotional, knee-jerk "solutions" (and have already gotten one).

    But, really, how would a genuinely humane society concerned about both the rights of the victim and the human-ness of the perpetrator go about creating a policy or procedure that addressed all concerns? That is to say, what would be that point wherein all interests coincide?
    some how this society has to correct its mentality about its perception of and need for prisons isn't working...

    some prisons are doubling up in solitary with devastating results. NPR's article on Doubling Up Prisoners In 'Solitary' Creates Deadly Consequences http://www.npr.org/2016/03/24/470824...y-consequences

    a correct solution citizen...the problem was built over decades...and won't be fixed overnight especially since it is a 80B industry in this society and IMHO that would be the first place to break...
    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    How ... did you equate a repeat shoplifter with a rapist of 9-year olds?
    Ignoring the needless blasphemous use of the Lord's name, I made no such equation. How can any honest man make any attempt to claim I did? I ask you to either post the citation and quotes where I equated any shoplifter with a rapist, or to frankly apologize for bearing false witness.

    What any honest, mature man with adult level reading comprehension can see, is that I responded to solus' post about how terrible it is we have a high incarceration rate with an example of some animals who desperately need to be incarcerated.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    But, really, how would a genuinely humane society concerned about both the rights of the victim and the human-ness of the perpetrator go about creating a policy or procedure that addressed all concerns? That is to say, what would be that point wherein all interests coincide?
    Great question. I note that the Swiss impose what we would consider to be very lenient sentences, but then quickly reintegrate the offender back into his community once he is released. No lifetime scarlet letters it seems.

    Of course, they seem to have communities into which to reintegrate offenders. I'm not sure we do anymore. At least not for the majority of the population living in urban and even suburban areas.

    We tried the kid glove approach of short or no sentences that the bleeding heart liberals told us would solve the problems of crime and recidivism. It didn't work and gave rise to the horrific violence of the 70s, 80s, and 90s that lead to the get tough approach that is now under attack.


    It is said that taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. I suspect you might agree with me that in many cases, taxes are the price we pay for a lack of civilization in society. If individuals voluntarily took care of each other, and paid their own way for the services they use, taxes could be dramatically reduced. Incarceration is similar. It is the price we pay for not having a civilized society where children are taught respect at an early age in the home and church, and where that respect is required in the classroom. Every crime against another has at its roots a lack of respect for the victim: his property rights, his person, his dignity.

    I think the real key is to have a society where crime is rare because we have engendered respect for others' rights. But that has been tough to do since the liberals took over the education system and the courts expelled the Judeo/Christian God from the classroom.

    In theory, we could teach respect for rights from a purely secular/humanist (which is no less a religion than Christianity, but that is another discussion) point of view. In practice, something about God and eternal judgment seems to assist in teaching respect for others' rights.

    A child of 6 or 8 who is caught stealing can be lovely taught why it is wrong, assisted to make restitution, and is likely to never steal again.

    An adult in his 20s or 30s who has been convicted of multiple thefts and doubtless gotten away with heaven only knows how many others presents a rather difficult challenge.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.
    Invite him to hang out in your store then.

    If multiple prior convictions with lessor penalties are not correcting his behavior, then he needs some stronger medicine. A real shame he chose not to seek out help before it came to this. You don't accidentally steal a pocketfull of goods from a store.

    We are the most generous nation on earth when it comes to private donations to those in need.

    There is no need to steal in this nation.

    People need to stop stealing others' stuff.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  14. #14
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    Attitudes towards criminals change rapidly after one becomes a victim.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

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  15. #15
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    31 lashes before the mast!
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.
    How much if he included the times he didn't get caught?
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  17. #17
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    How much if he included the times he didn't get caught?
    ...hmm...Dollar General and C-Stores? What? Another $17.50...$20?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    31 lashes before the mast!
    Might work better then prison time.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 04-05-2016 at 09:26 AM.
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  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Does the punishment fit the crime? Three strikes you're out? Our system of punishment is screwed up. What is the root of the crime? I remember a program called Scared straight. Great TV, but it didn't work. It is just like those driver training films of auto accidents. They work for about a day.

    The government and progressives wanted to take care of you from cradle to grave. Is it a wonder why Bernie Sanders is so popular. After the WWII we created the entitlement society. If I don't get what I believe I'm entitled to then I'll take it.

    As long as morals is not part of the equation then an answer will not be forthcoming.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    31 lashes before the mast!
    Perhaps make them run the gauntlet?

    The beatings will stop when morale improves.

    The beatings will stop when morals improve.

    Hmmm......
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
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    If the laws/prosecutor want a conviction, then they must present a punishment that fits the crime and offender.

    I hate thieves. But I vote no, and would be ashamed at the options presented by the "justice" system.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    we could do what they do in the middle east.. cut off his hand and brand him on the cheek.

    or impose supervised community service, roughly 10 hours for every dollar stolen.

  23. #23
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    Justice used to be focus on recompensation to the victims which is never "the state".

    I would say not guilty because the current system relies on theft to punish a thief and is more bent on propping the system up rather than any sort of justice.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Justice used to be focus on recompensation to the victims which is never "the state".

    I would say not guilty because the current system relies on theft to punish a thief and is more bent on propping the system up rather than any sort of justice.
    You must have the same crystal ball I have.....

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Justice used to be focus on recompensation to the victims which is never "the state".

    I would say not guilty because the current system relies on theft to punish a thief and is more bent on propping the system up rather than any sort of justice.
    Oh, my. Well said.

    Thank you for passing along that irony.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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