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Thread: What do you do?

  1. #1
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    What do you do?

    When we leave our homes everyday, we have no idea how that day is going to turn out but we pray that as the day goes on we find our way to make it back home to our families.

    I carry everywhere that I can possibly carry legally in the Hampton Roads area and there is so much going on that I never know how the day will end. But today I was asked a question on what I would have done in a certain scenario.

    Your having dinner with some friends and you are in a nice restaurant enjoying the company and atmosphere of the establishment. You are carrying, as you always do, for the sake of argument you are carrying openly. During the course of the evening, a commotion breaks out between two guest that are not in your party. The argument starts to turn for the worse when one of those two takes a knife from the table and threatens to stab the other.

    After repeated efforts from the management and other guests in the restaurant to try to calm the situation, that individual eventually stabs the other. 911 has already been dispatched and are en route to the business. The individual with the knife is now threatening other guests and it looks like that person is going to stab another guest and does.

    At what point do you as the individual that has the means to stop this person from committing these crimes, step in and take the necessary measures to stop them?

    Do you defend those victims? Is deadly force justified?

    I am interested to hear what people have to say. There is so many variables to this that I can't and wont go through all of them.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-08-2016 at 09:35 PM. Reason: formatted for easier reading
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  2. #2
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    having sampled the niceties of the justice system in Virginia, I get up and leave. My friends and family I will take care of. Strangers made the choice not to be prepared.
    JFT 96

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    There is so many variables to this that I can't and wont go through all of them.
    Neither will we.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    having sampled the niceties of the justice system in Virginia, I get up and leave. My friends and family I will take care of. Strangers made the choice not to be prepared.
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    what scouser said about getting up and leave...leaving a business card w/a member of management to give to the nice investigator if they need further witnesses.

    ipse
    Definitely try to leave. Whether I employ my firearm in that effort will be determined by the obstacle the bad guy poses to my path to the exit.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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  5. #5
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts. A majority would choose not to do anything.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    Your having dinner with some friends and you are in a nice restaurant enjoying the company and atmosphere of the establishment. [ ... ] There is so many variables to this that I can't and wont go through all of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    Interesting thoughts. A majority would choose not to do anything.
    The road to Hell is paved with hypotheticals, with what-ifs.

    I would leave. I would not likely give custom to such a dive. One particular awareness of the situation is easy, what fraction of customers are wearing caps, what fraction is wearing coats and ties. The judgement on the balance is yours to make.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-09-2016 at 07:04 AM.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Not true at all. The majority have said they would protect their families by evacuating them.
    That would be my first priority as well, to protect my family and believe me if they were present and we all would be following each other out the door.
    However, the families were not present.
    "Your having dinner with some friends and you are in a nice restaurant enjoying the company and atmosphere of the establishment."

    What about the defense of others?
    Last edited by sparkman2; 04-09-2016 at 07:56 AM.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

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    Keep in mind the OP said the hypothetical involved having dinner with friends, not family. In my case that would mean pretty much everybody at our table would be armed; I'm thinking the sight of that might make Knife Boy start practicing some better manners pretty quick. If the situation involved a table full of family, I couldn't really say, seeing as how most all of mine has passed away. (Not stated for sympathy, just happens to be the case.)

    Now, keep in mind my answer is only as serious as responding to one of these "What if?" threads could ever be. Too many variables. On the Ohioans for Concealed Carry forums we discussed a real restaurant attack in Columbus from a few weeks ago; dude there was wielding a machete and hacked up four people pretty bad. Sorry gang, maybe it's my years in emergency service, albeit the fire/EMS side, but I'm not bailing out the back door while that's going on. Mr. Aloha Snack-Bar is getting a few ounces of lead, regardless of who I'm dining with.

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    Having been trained to handle situations like this I would I would make sure my family and my self were safe by what ever means necessary. Leaving is a option, staying put depending on ones location, up to shooting the person if it was deemed necessary.

    Getting involved in third party defense of unknown parties is a very hard thing to do right. A lot of responders have attacked by both parties when they inject themselves into the situation. I seen two people absolutely beating the crap out of each turn on the responder for messing in.

    I see women who just had the crap beat out of them attack the responder for messing with their man.

    Victim status could very well come into play also lets say the attacker starts after young children or starts attacking random people.

    Playing the what if game is a good idea it sets you up with some sort of plan. Even it the exact scenario doesn't play out.

    If this happens I well do that if that happens I well do this. what exit well we leave by where are the emergency exits.

    Where is cover/concealment I constantly played the what if game while on the job every time approached a situation from a simple traffic stop to high risk shooting situations. Preplanning is a good idea.

    Even to this day I am constantly aware of my environment. But I am going to do my best not get involved in situations unless I absolutely have to.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 04-09-2016 at 08:14 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    [ ... ]What about the defense of others?
    Defense of self is freighted, defense of others is exponentially worse, particularly for US not entitled to any level of (qualified) immunity.

    Shalom Aleichem
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-09-2016 at 08:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    [ ... ] Sorry gang, maybe it's my years in emergency service, albeit the fire/EMS side, but I'm not bailing out the back door while that's going on. Mr. Aloha Snack-Bar is getting a few ounces of lead, regardless of who I'm dining with.
    Pray these bigoted prejudicial words don't come around to bite you in the tort.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Like the OP said there's too many variables. He was unwilling to go through them all so I'm not going to either, I get the f*** out of there PERIOD.

    However, on the off chance the psycho has decided to head in my direction, and considering the place selected by the OP is a 'nice restaurant', chances are that my steak knife is in my right hand, and a quicker means of defending myself than a firearm that is not in my right hand. (Those of you that know me and have eaten with me may have noticed I don't put down my knife after cutting my steak in order to switch the fork to my right hand. Knife stays in right hand, fork stays in left, it's how us Brits were taught to use them).

    All this talk of food and knives and restaurants is making me hungry, so I'm headed out to meet my friends for breakfast
    Last edited by scouser; 04-09-2016 at 08:46 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Since it's impossible to know, from the facts given, whether the person being attacked contributed to the ruckus himself, and thus whether or not he's "innocent", there's no way to know whether intervention would be justified or not. Besides, the man with the knife may be an undercover cop defending himself during a drug sting operation. Be observant, have good situational awareness, and make sure you and people you're responsible for are defended. Unless you're sure you know what you're doing, don't do it. (Consult my definition of the affirmative defense of self-defense/defense of innocent others elsewhere on this forum.)
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  14. #14
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Since it's impossible to know, from the facts given, whether the person being attacked contributed to the ruckus himself, and thus whether or not he's "innocent", there's no way to know whether intervention would be justified or not. Besides, the man with the knife may be an undercover cop defending himself during a drug sting operation. Be observant, have good situational awareness, and make sure you and people you're responsible for are defended. Unless you're sure you know what you're doing, don't do it. (Consult my definition of the affirmative defense of self-defense/defense of innocent others elsewhere on this forum.)
    How will it be known the he is a LEO if he is "undercover"? Is that victim legally entitled to defend themselves? If it was viewed that the victim was at no fault of the altercation, what then?
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  15. #15
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    How will it be known the he is a LEO if he is "undercover"? Is that victim legally entitled to defend themselves? If it was viewed that the victim was at no fault of the altercation, what then?
    Still the same, get up and get out, I do not possess a canine in their altercation.
    JFT 96

    I'm sorry, did I offend you with my opinion?
    You should hear the ones I keep to myself.

    Porthos, Athos, and Aramis = peter nap, skidmark and Grapeshot, d'Artagnan = ?

  16. #16
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    I enjoy no special privilege to carry not available to any and every other law-abiding, mentally competent, adult member of the public. So if I'm carrying, most everyone around me enjoys the same rights to carry either without a permit or via a non-discriminatory permit. They've had the same legal opportunity to prepare to defend themselves as I have.

    For myself, family, and dear friends, risking bankruptcy and lifetime incarceration in defense of innocent life and limb is a trade I have to make.

    For complete strangers, many of whom would undoubtedly vote to convict and have voted to strip me of my rights? No thanks. Doubly so when we consider the potentials put up by user about the seeming "aggressor" actually being the one acting in self-defense.

    If possible, I'm leaving the area. If I can't leave because someone is threatening me or mine, now I have to act in lawful self defense.

    I'm not a cop. I don't have QI. I don't intend to act like a cop.

    And heaven forbid I ever have to act in lawful self-defense, everything that any over-zealous prosecutor can dig up that I've written is going to back up my intention to avoid the use of deadly force whenever I possibly can and to only use it when absolutely necessary for defense of myself and my family.

    Charles
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  17. #17
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    To all that took the time to respond thank you. All of us agree that our first and foremost duty is to protect our family and those who are dear to us from harm. While a vast majority chose to not get involved, a couple did say that they would have intervened if the situation compelled them to do so. I would have been one of them.

    Can we just take it one step further on the same scenario, same situation, nothing has changed...except now you are now the victims being stabbed.

    What do you see?
    Last edited by sparkman2; 04-10-2016 at 05:41 AM.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    To all that took the time to respond thank you. All of us agree that our first and foremost duty is to protect our family and those who are dear to us from harm. While a vast majority chose to not get involved, a couple did say that they would have intervened if the situation compelled them to do so. I would have been one of them.

    Can we just take it one step further on the same scenario, same situation, nothing has changed...except now you are that victims being stabbed.

    What do you see?
    What do I see?? Or what do I do?

    I do not get involved in arguments, especially loud, heated arguments. I do not wish to become part of the problem. I would back away from said individual with hands/arms slightly elevated - while saying that I did not want trouble. That should end it and allow myself and my family to leave the restaurant as soon as safe. Notify the manager and call 911 as appropriate - threats made?

    What transpires after the initial confrontation will impact how I react. Should the aggressor continue to pursue and threaten me, giving me the firm belief that he was immediately about to attack me or mine with the means to do so causing serious personal injury or death; then I would react to that situation, report to 911 that there was a need for emergency medical assistance. Would call my attorney ASAP! When LE arrived, I would say only that I was defending myself/family. Would advise LEOs that I was exercising my option of not speaking to them at this time - after physical consultation with my attorney, he would speak for me and then KMBMS.

    There is no single best answer - still too many variables. Split second decisions must be made and be made correctly. No one wins if/when a confrontation turns deadly - some just lose less.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-09-2016 at 04:41 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    How will it be known the he is a LEO if he is "undercover"? Is that victim legally entitled to defend themselves? If it was viewed that the victim was at no fault of the altercation, what then?
    Even if he were to announce himself as "police", you still don't know until you see some credentials, and what difference would that make, anyway? You gonna shoot him once he says he's a cop?

    "victim" "themselves"? More than one? Regardless, one doesn't know the answer to that question, either, because, assuming the guy with the knife is a cop attempting to make an arrest, you'd have to know whether it were a lawful arrest or not to be able to answer the question.

    Ok, what then? You think what you "view" has some bearing on whether, as a legal matter, he's at fault or not?

    Suggest you mind your own business.
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    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    [ ... ]Suggest you mind your own business.
    The same gentleman that taught that "Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Also taught, Mind Your Own Business - MYOB.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post

    1. After repeated efforts from the management and other guests in the restaurant to try to calm the situation, that individual eventually stabs the other.

    2. 911 has already been dispatched and are en route to the business.

    3. The individual with the knife is now threatening other guests and it looks like that person is going to stab another guest and does..
    To open I will speak of the fact that most of you would move your families to safety. Good on you for doing what you need to do.

    Now, I will remain seated during #1, keeping an extra eye on the proceedings because one person has been stabbed. Enough people handling it. Now #2 This has been done by more than one person. And now for #3 The individual is threatening (LEOs won't do this part) to stab another human, the staff does not yet have a handle on it and Yes, this is where I will step in to prevent the loss of life.

    You have to do what is best for you. What is best for me is to stand up and stop bad guys when I am confronted by them.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  22. #22
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    GTFO IMMEDIATELY

    Keeping eyes on the threat, strong hand on alert in your brain, swiftly move towards an exit - perhaps assisting a couple others out the door if it's convenient.

    If the perp tried to kill me, well, scissors beat paper.
    Last edited by The Truth; 04-09-2016 at 11:33 PM.
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    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Grapeshot;2187571]What do I see?? Or what do I do?

    The question that I had asked was "you are now the victims being stabbed. What do you see?"

    Everybody here has pretty much clarified that it would be in their best interest to not get involved and to remove everyone in their party to a safer and more secure location away from the altercation. There are few here that would have evaluated the situation and ultimately made the choice on whether or not they would appropriately respond and protect those individuals that were being harmed.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  24. #24
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Clarification. Your are no longer the outsider looking in but the victims looking out to the crowd as someone is stabbing you.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Going to end this open ended, changing parameters thread. Topic is way to broad and asks others to comment on a public forum what they might do if............

    Such statements/responses have the serious potential of causing harm in the event that a prosecutor should decide to use them as evidence of intent....whether such was intended or not.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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