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Thread: Senate bill draft would prohibit unbreakable encryption

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    Senate bill draft would prohibit unbreakable encryption

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...ESS_ENCRYPTION

    Repugnicans and demoncraps in bed together, a push-me-pull-you.

    Protonmail.ch FREE end-to-end encrypted off-shore protected by Swiss law. WhatsApp is not so protected.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Link does not take you to the story...

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    You just thought you lived in a free country.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    How about almost unbreakable, used twice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Link does not take you to the story...
    You are - you're - right, it does not. It did, because I carefully checked. Search on news for "unbreakable + encryption"

    I do apologize.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    You are - you're - right, it does not. It did, because I carefully checked. Search on news for "unbreakable + encryption"

    I do apologize.
    Now that you apologized I guess you want me to accept it. Well OK, apology accepted.

    Now, if I could only figure out how to get my wife to apologize to me, I'd be in seventh heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Now that you apologized I guess you want me to accept it. Well OK, apology accepted. Now, if I could only figure out how to get my wife to apologize to me, I'd be in seventh heaven.
    No, I was merely being civil. I don't give a rat's rosy Rumpole that you accept it. (A la Rumpole of the Bailey. Funny!)
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Repugnicans and demoncraps in bed together, a push-me-pull-you.

    Protonmail.ch FREE end-to-end encrypted off-shore protected by Swiss law. WhatsApp is not so protected.
    I remember playing with the original PGP encryption for email back when I was using EMACS as my email reader. At the same time, our CS professor made clear that he was technically violating ITAR (International Trafficking in Arms Regulations)--aka import/export rules applied to technology with military/weapons use potential--by teaching a lesson on public-key cryptography in a class that had foreign nationals present.

    The mantra back then was that if we only encrypted really important stuff it was like flagging what was really important. OTOH, if encryption were to be used generally, the fact that something was encrypted would not be unusual.

    At the time, nobody encrypted much of anything.

    Then we got Facebook and other social media and suddenly people were making public things that I couldn't believe anyone would want to publicize. If nothing else, wait until you are home from vacation to post the photos and talk about what a great time you had. What kind of idiot advertising to the whole world that his house is empty and unattended while he is gone?

    The government has no business presuming to outlaw encryption, or telling us how fast government has to be able to open our gun safes, or that we can't hide things well enough they can't be found.

    But I doubt very many people will use encryption anytime soon for their bulk data. Sharing with a world full of strangers seems to be far more important to most.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    But I doubt very many people will use encryption anytime soon for their bulk data. Sharing with a world full of strangers seems to be far more important to most.
    I have a different point of view.

    I believe that more people are becoming more concerned with their security and privacy online. Now, some companies are changing their products in ways that allows that concern to become more actionable, even for non-technical users.

    I believe that as tech companies help make security and privacy concerns more easily actionable for the non-technical, more people will take that action out of their growing concern, becoming more invested in their privacy and security, and I believe that will make it easier to mobilize efforts to oppose government violation of the same.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    New link.

    http://phys.org/news/2016-04-senate-...ncryption.html

    Let them do it. It will be shot down in court most likely.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    No encyption code is unbreakable. It is not a matter of 'if' but rather of 'when.'

    Consider the case of the government wanting the cell phone code from Apple - Apple refused. Didn't not make any difference.

    "The government ultimately purchased that solution—which FBI Director James Comey said only works on an iPhone 5C running version 9 of the Apple operating system—and is keeping it secret for now."
    http://phys.org/news/2016-04-senate-...ncryption.html
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-10-2016 at 06:10 PM. Reason: formatting went wild - fixed it
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Correctly used, One Time Pads are unbreakable. The problem is that they're very rarely used correctly

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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    The objective is not unbreakable encryption but encryption too expensive to break, too expensive of political capital, time or money.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The objective is not unbreakable encryption but encryption too expensive to break, too expensive of political capital, time or money.
    What price glory? Cost is relevant to how bad you want it....and who is paying the tab.

    To the glory that was Greece and the grandeur........
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I haven't read the draft bill but, I think the strength of encryption being employed is largely beside the point. I think more accurately, what is prohibited is proper uses or implementations of security. If a company offered to encrypt customer data using an "unbreakable" algorithm, but held all the keys and quickly handed them over to any demanding government agency, they'd likely not run afoul of the legislation at all. Thus it isn't the strength of the encryption in question, per se, it's that companies would be, essentially, compelled to retain access to customer data and not allow themselves to be "locked out" so to speak. They wouldn't be allowed to engineer and release products that are designed properly and securely, where a customer could select a passphrase on their device that would then limit the companies' ability to access data. Of course, either way, the whole thing is absurd, and should be opposed vehemently.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I believe that more people are becoming more concerned with their security and privacy online. Now, some companies are changing their products in ways that allows that concern to become more actionable, even for non-technical users.

    I believe that as tech companies help make security and privacy concerns more easily actionable for the non-technical, more people will take that action out of their growing concern, becoming more invested in their privacy and security, and I believe that will make it easier to mobilize efforts to oppose government violation of the same.
    I suspect that people will use whatever their phone gives them automatically. but not more for most people.

    There are those who give privacy and security a lot of thought including both civil libertarians and some intelligent criminals (no overlap intended). They will take more serious measures to protect their privacy. But most won't.

    But I'd be pleased to be wrong on this one.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Privacy concerns? FBI director Comey trolled online for taping over laptop cam RT

    You carry a networked location-tracking mic/camera/accelerometer everywhere you go, but sure, tape over the built-in webcam on your laptop.

    — Mike Myers (@fristle) April 9, 2016
    https://www.rt.com/usa/339136-fbi-pr...oncerns-comey/

    "I saw something in the news, so I copied it. I put a piece of tape — I have obviously a laptop, personal laptop — I put a piece of tape over the camera. Because I saw somebody smarter than I am had a piece of tape over their camera."

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...ver-his-webcam

    I appreciate the cellphone comment as I really resent my Samsung Galaxy for not having control of it. I rip out every crapp that I can and they sneak back in. My Milady Wife is envious of its large screen, so in a few weeks I'll probably get an iPhone - and hope that it does not abuse my trust so.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-11-2016 at 05:52 AM.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Call your senators and reps. Demand that they oppose this bill. If they do not oppose then work to have them be replaced with a citizen who respects individual liberty...since they do not.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The objective is not unbreakable encryption but encryption too expensive to break, too expensive of political capital, time or money.
    Correct. I know of a case, a number of years ago, that the encryption was never broken. It was determined that a super computer would have to run, at least, 3 years to have a chance in breaking the code.

    People are figuring out that the fourth amendment term, reasonable, is subjective, not objective. The compelling interest of the people never figures into the equation. What is good for the government is good for the people. Rights, you ain't got no rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No encyption code is unbreakable. It is not a matter of 'if' but rather of 'when.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The objective is not unbreakable encryption but encryption too expensive to break, too expensive of political capital, time or money.
    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    People are figuring out that the fourth amendment term, reasonable, is subjective, not objective. The compelling interest of the people never figures into the equation. ...
    Most accurately, the question is whether the encryption is strong enough that it is too difficult/expensive to break within the time frame that the data needs to remain encrypted. Also factored in is the cost to the user if the data is compromised

    For example, if you are keeping your wife's birthday gift a surprise, you only need to protect the data for a few months and probably won't expect the police to be trying to break the encryption. And if the encryption were to be broken, you're probably not facing any bad consequences. On the flip side, a married man's text messages to his mistress would create some larger problems for him if they were to be decrypted.

    If you are running a double set of books on your cash only business so as to cheat on income taxes, or keeping a list of your favorite illicit drug dealers, you probably need something that will take several years to crack. You may well expect the local police or IRS to have an interest in cracking it. And if cracked you are facing some jail time. On the non-criminal front, personal bank account information and ability to send e-payments might attract the attention of some criminals and cause some fairly serious financial pain. But in 50 years, those accounts won't exist and you will be deceased and the information will be of very little value.

    Someone who is planning or carried out a high profile terror attack against this country can expect the full resources of the NSA and other federal agencies, plus the financial resources of the federal government purchasing private sector expertise to be brought to bear. Again, on the legit side, your company's trade secrets may be worth millions of dollars and provide jobs to thousands of people, and are likely to be of great interest to competitors including those with foreign governments fully willing to assist them in their corporate espionage efforts.

    It is good to see the courts taking notice that the constitution prohibits unreasonable search and seizure without a warrant. This means some warrantless searches and seizures are reasonable.

    I want my rights protected including my rights to be secure in my person, papers, and effects (ie privacy). To secure my rights, I have to respect these rights for others...including those who may be engaged in or accused of criminal conduct. But, we should also bear in mind that the 4th amendment wasn't written to make crime easier. That is merely an unfortunate side effect of limiting the power of government to snoop around in the lives of the law-abiding. It would be fascinating to see what the Framers considered "reasonable" search and seizure in a day before electronic communications and snooping, but also much less personal anonymity in most communities.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...For example, if you are keeping your wife's birthday gift a surprise, you only need to protect the data for a few months and probably won't expect the police to be trying to break the encryption. And if the encryption were to be broken, you're probably not facing any bad consequences. On the flip side, a married man's text messages to his mistress would create some larger problems for him if they were to be decrypted.

    Charles
    I have been looking for those text messages with my mistress for months. I have even asked my wife to look for them. None, zip, zero, not one. Not even a pretend one. What's a guy to do?????

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I have been looking for those text messages with my mistress for months. I have even asked my wife to look for them. None, zip, zero, not one. Not even a pretend one. What's a guy to do?????
    Rent a nice luxury apartment, furnish it in the latest style, park a new Corvette in the driveway, and run an ad seeking a friend who would enjoy the benefits of a strictly professional relationship.

    You might want to point out that job assignments are very light duty.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The Framers’ Intent: John Adams, His Era, and the Fourth Amendment

    One perspective.
    Most of the language and structure of the Fourth Amendment was primarily the work of one man, John Adams. Adams was an important person for many other reasons, including as the second President of the United States. His life is the subject of many biographies; his letters, works, and extensive writings are a rich source of material. Less studied and understood, however, are his knowledge of, and views on, search and seizure and his role in formulating the principles to regulate those governmental actions. Upon examination, Adams stands out in that era as having profound opportunities to examine search and seizure practices and as having the most important role in formulating the language and structure of the Fourth Amendment. If the intent of the framers is a fundamental consideration in construing the Constitution, as the Court has repeatedly told us it is, then John Adams’s knowledge and views should be considered an important source for understanding the Fourth Amendment.

    http://ilj.law.indiana.edu/articles/86/86_3_Clancy.pdf
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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