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Thread: Arguments against campus carry

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    Regular Member Victory Bill's Avatar
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    Arguments against campus carry

    Part of my POL-345C (Politics of Gun Control) requires us to participate in a debate with other students. We have been divided in to 10 groups (4-5 students in each group). I have been assigned to the group that has to oppose campus carry and we'll be debating 5 students in support of campus carry. For those that have participated in walks on campuses, what kind of reasons have you heard from those against? I've brainstormed and haven't been able to come up with any logical argument, not saying there is one but I need to come up with something. Any help with this is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Victory Bill; 04-09-2016 at 11:04 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    There are no logical reasons. It's all based on emotions. It is a utopian idea.

    You know you have been assigned to that side of the argument for a reason, don't you?

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    In many debate events, teams will be randomly assigned to one side or the other, argue their point. And then after the debate has ended, the two teams switch sides and have to argue the other side. The goal is to hone debating skills.

    If I were assigned to argue against campus carry, I would go with the various emotional arguments about "feeling safe". Notice how the 1st amendment now needs to be restricted on campus lest students "don't feel safe" when they see Donald Trump's name written in chalk on a sidewalk. I would also argue that too many students on campus are not mature enough to safely handle guns. After all, look at the problems with on-campus alcohol abuse, sexual assaults, etc.

    In other words, take the arguments of the other side and present them well. They obviously work well in many settings.

    Then, run them to their logical conclusions. Logically, nobody including debate judges can argue with that. And it might open a few eyes.

    Remember that in gun-free Utopias like England, even police don't generally feel the need to go about armed. So perhaps college campuses should be really gun free employing only unarmed security rather having sworn officers with those icky guns.

    Good luck.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victory Bill View Post
    Part of my POL-345C (Politics of Gun Control) requires us to participate in a debate with other students. We have been divided in to 10 groups (4-5 students in each group). I have been assigned to the group that has to oppose campus carry and we'll be debating 5 students in support of campus carry. For those that have participated in walks on campuses, what kind of reasons have you heard from those against? I've brainstormed and haven't been able to come up with any logical argument, not saying there is one but I need to come up with something. Any help with this is greatly appreciated.
    Is this a forensic debate, that you are asking questions about? You must use the logic of your assigned position.

    Going armed to the terror of the public is a point. There are instances of a legally armed citizen committing crimes while armed that are possible on campus. The campus security services are there to make your colleagues feel safe. Students have a right to feel safe. They may be safer on an disarmed campus.

    You will win no points trivializing your assigned position. Remember, this is a learning experience just like an examination. You are not expected to agree, but to understand. I just noticed that this is a 300 level class, you should by now be able to handle anything asked of you.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Victory Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    There are no logical reasons. It's all based on emotions. It is a utopian idea.

    You know you have been assigned to that side of the argument for a reason, don't you?
    To be fair to the professor, our groups and assigned positions to defend were sent out near the beginning of the semester. She may have detected my ideology with regards to the subject however the walk coming up had no impact...if that is what you are thinking. I was thinking about asking to be switched to the pro campus carry team but I figured I wouldn't learn much from arguing that position because I'm already a firm believer in the right.
    Non sibi sed patriae
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    Regular Member Victory Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    In many debate events, teams will be randomly assigned to one side or the other, argue their point. And then after the debate has ended, the two teams switch sides and have to argue the other side. The goal is to hone debating skills.

    If I were assigned to argue against campus carry, I would go with the various emotional arguments about "feeling safe". Notice how the 1st amendment now needs to be restricted on campus lest students "don't feel safe" when they see Donald Trump's name written in chalk on a sidewalk. I would also argue that too many students on campus are not mature enough to safely handle guns. After all, look at the problems with on-campus alcohol abuse, sexual assaults, etc.

    In other words, take the arguments of the other side and present them well. They obviously work well in many settings.

    Then, run them to their logical conclusions. Logically, nobody including debate judges can argue with that. And it might open a few eyes.

    Remember that in gun-free Utopias like England, even police don't generally feel the need to go about armed. So perhaps college campuses should be really gun free employing only unarmed security rather having sworn officers with those icky guns.

    Good luck.

    Charles
    So maybe argue that a good portion of students aren't mature enough yet to handle the responsibility? They can't drink responsibility, when it comes to sexual assault some have a problem with self-control. I think that is a pretty darn good approach.
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    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Aren't most places concealed carry over 21 years old? Open carry maybe over 18, but little open carry on campus. So, this would most likely not be your incoming freshmen class we would be talking about, but upper class Juniors and Seniors, if anyone. I guess if you were a 35 year old freshmen?

    Been a long time since I've been on a campus, maybe upper classmen aren't all that much more responsible than incoming freshmen these days. Just a thought. You didn't specifically mention Oc/Cc either way.

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    Regular Member Victory Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Is this a forensic debate, that you are asking questions about? You must use the logic of your assigned position.

    Going armed to the terror of the public is a point. There are instances of a legally armed citizen committing crimes while armed that are possible on campus. The campus security services are there to make your colleagues feel safe. Students have a right to feel safe. They may be safer on an disarmed campus.

    You will win no points trivializing your assigned position. Remember, this is a learning experience just like an examination. You are not expected to agree, but to understand. I just noticed that this is a 300 level class, you should by now be able to handle anything asked of you.
    Not quite clear on what exactly a "forensic debate" is, to be honest. I was assigned to a group that has to argue in favor of a position I vehemently oppose. You can imagine the challenge I face. I'm an older student (44) so my core beliefs are steeled. To be put into a position where I have to argue a position I'm firmly against is equivalent to playing a game of chess against myself. Additionally, I'm not fond of the idea of providing the opposition to my position, valid arguments to strengthen their position (if I'm effective in the task at hand).
    Last edited by Victory Bill; 04-09-2016 at 01:56 PM.
    Non sibi sed patriae
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    I'm from the KY forums. I push heavily for Campus Carry in my state and have have no less than 12 hours of interaction with both University Police and Senior Administrators on the issue here at the University of Louisville.

    Here are common arguments against.


    1. Mental illness and suicide. Since college students experience high amounts of stress, they fear access to firearms will make it easier to choose suicide.

    2. Alcohol and guns. 'Nuff said.

    3. Students angry over grades acting impulsively and taking violent actions against professors.

    4. Fear over armed students having an adverse effect of academic debate or opposing viewpoints in classrooms.

    5. Vigilantes being mistakenly shot by police responding in the event of a crime.

    6.Thefts are by and far the most common crime on college campuses. So fear of firearms being stolen for use in later crimes.

    7. Increased insurance for the university. (This will definitely happen when campus carry is passed)

    8.Lack of recruitment for students and faculty.

    9. Student demonstrations and negative media attention.

    10. Increased instances of violent crime.

    I can refute all but the insurance claims, but these topics are the one's you'll find the most research on.

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    As often as possible, refer to yourselves as 'children in college' instead of 'college students'.

    The quick-witted among those assigned to the pro-gun side should jump all over that with 'we aren't children' arguments.

    And don't agree or even point it out when they say it, because you're on the anti-gun side.

    "We children in college are fresh from our homes and can no longer depend on our parents for protection. We now must depend only (stress the word 'only') on the scarce law enforcement resources of the university. We shouldn't make their job harder by introducing self-defense into the situation. When they finally arrive, how would they tell who needed protecting and who didn't?"

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  11. #11
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    And you should probably review the HANDBOOK the anti-gunners use.

    Yes, they ARE that organized.

    http://s3.documentcloud.org/document...uide-pdf-1.pdf
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Well done. Well said.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Say whatever you must say to get a good grade...your grade depends on it.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahareht View Post
    I'm from the KY forums. I push heavily for Campus Carry in my state and have have no less than 12 hours of interaction with both University Police and Senior Administrators on the issue here at the University of Louisville.

    Here are common arguments against.

    7. Increased insurance for the university. (This will definitely happen when campus carry is passed)

    I can refute all but the insurance claims, but these topics are the one's you'll find the most research on.
    Public entities are self insured. The state has their own insurance pool. Municipal governments contributions can increase IF they keep doing stupid things. If the law changed to allow CC in college classrooms, games over.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahareht View Post
    5. Vigilantes being mistakenly shot by police responding in the event of a crime.

    6.Thefts are by and far the most common crime on college campuses. So fear of firearms being stolen for use in later crimes.

    7. Increased insurance for the university. (This will definitely happen when campus carry is passed)

    8.Lack of recruitment for students and faculty.

    9. Student demonstrations and negative media attention.


    I can refute all but the insurance claims, but these topics are the one's you'll find the most research on.
    5-9 actually seem reasonable.

    Good luck!

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    I'm almost surprised that colleges still do the "debate as teaching tool" thing. I can just imagine some of today's young delicate snowflakes being assigned to defend positions they don't agree with, and crying their way out of the assignment. (I've got a couple great examples of topics that would put their panties in a bunch!)

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