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Thread: Oklahoma Senate repeals permit requirement for open carry

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    Oklahoma Senate repeals permit requirement for open carry

    http://www.newson6.com/story/3178154...klahoma-senate
    -----
    OpenCarry.org comment: Most states do NOT require a permit to carry handguns openly. See map at http://www.opencarry.org/.../map-ope...-of-a-properly... showing that 30 states require no permit to open carry handguns. If anything is a right under the second amendment, it's the right to carry handguns openly. Rights cannot be limited by licensing schemes and other measures of prior restraint. Learn more about the open carry of properly holstered handguns and OpenCarry.org. And carry on!

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    Move to CT .. I'll be your campaign manager for your run at Gov !

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    Don't forget folks; with or without a licensing scheme, the owner has final say on whether or not you can carry on their property. Let's all be polite ambassadors out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne&Vera View Post
    Don't forget folks; with or without a licensing scheme, the owner has final say on whether or not you can carry on their property. Let's all be polite ambassadors out there.
    I have always appreciated this provision of South Carolina's Law Abiding Citizens Self-Defense Act of 1996;
    SECTION 23-31-225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.

    No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. [ ... ] ( http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.php)
    I would announce myself at a door, "Good afternoon, Mrs. Homeowner, I am armed, may I come in?"
    Aristotle describes the modes of persuasion in his Rhetoric as Ethos, Logos, Kairos and Pathos. Don’t be pathetic or, worse, bathetic! Alexander Pope 1727 Many Painters who could never hit a Nose or an Eye, have with Felicity copied a Small-Pox, or been admirable at a Toad or a Red-Herring. And seldom are we without Genius's for Still Life, which they can work up and stiffen with incredible Accuracy. Peri Bathous vi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I have always appreciated this provision of South Carolina's Law Abiding Citizens Self-Defense Act of 1996;I would announce myself at a door, "Good afternoon, Mrs. Homeowner, I am armed, may I come in?"
    What else should we have to announce about ourselves and obtain explicit permission from homeowners before our otherwise welcome entrance is not a crime?

    No, the proper way to handle this is either through standard trespass law without any special attention to lawfully possessed firearms, or--if firearms are going to get some special attention--the default position must be that a general invite makes entrance while armed lawful unless the resident(s) gives notice that guns are not permitted.

    Utah's 76-10-530 handles this quite well IMO:


    76-10-530. Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.

    (1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Firearm Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
    (a) transport a firearm into:
    (i) a house of worship; or
    (ii) a private residence; or

    (b) while in possession of a firearm, enter or remain in:
    (i) a house of worship; or
    (ii) a private residence.

    (2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
    [various means...]

    As for businesses open to the public....same rules ought to apply to law-abiding gun carriers as apply to any other potentially unpopular minority group including racial/ethnic groups, religious or political affiliation, sexual orientation, sexual identity, gender, etc and so on.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne&Vera View Post
    Don't forget folks; with or without a licensing scheme, the owner has final say on whether or not you can carry on their property. Let's all be polite ambassadors out there.
    We should be polite.

    And while this is an Oklahoma specific thread, your comment about "with or without licensing" schemes leads me to believe you intend your statement to be more broad than just Oklahoma. If so, realize that depending on the jurisdiction, the owner of business property open to the public may not have as much legal power to ban possession on his property as some might assume.

    I am not aware of any jurisdictions yet where lawful possession of a firearm is given protected category status against discrimination such as provided to persons based on racial, religious, gender, or sexual identity demographics. But there are jurisdictions (at least one I know of) where a business owner will have a tough time making a case for any criminal charges against a customer who happens to carry in contradiction of the business owner's private policies.

    And of course, where the "owner" of the property is "the government" acting as agent for We the People, the agent should not be permitted to infringe our rights. Whether it is a city park, a library, zoo, city council meeting, State legislative hearing, or just visiting with our kids' teachers at a public school, government should no more be permitted to restrict our RKBA in routine and unsecured locations than we'd tolerate them refusing access to a black man or homosexual woman.

    We should be polite. We should not consent to having our rights violated, or accept less acceptance in society than being provided to virtually every other minority group one can think of.

    We should also obey the laws while we work to have them overturned in the courts or changed in the legislative bodies.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    While I agree that the law shouldn't specifically deal with firearms being carried into residences, I always ask before carrying a firearm into a private home, just out of extra respect for people's places of abode.

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    So is Texas only a few years behind the curve, as usual?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    We should be polite.

    And while this is an Oklahoma specific thread, your comment about "with or without licensing" schemes leads me to believe you intend...
    Charles
    Um, Wow. No I wasn't making any kind of wider all encompassing, multi state declaration. What I actually meant was... Exactly what I said.

    "Don't forget folks; with or without a licensing scheme, the owner has final say on whether or not you can carry on their property. Let's all be polite ambassadors out there"

    Scheme: " a*large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining..." Licensing concealed carry in this state
    Or without, aka, "constitutional carry" (open only)

    1. Regardless of anyone elses personal desires, if you don't want that (thing/behavior) on your personal property; then you have a right to tell them to cease. If they choose not to, then they can leave. If you want to get down to the end results, refusing to leave when an police officer is called can result in a charge of trespassing. Although, thank God, our statute does protect the legal weapons carrier from being defined as a criminal just because they are legally carrying a weapon.

    2. Let's all be polite.

    That's it, no deep dark hidden meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    While I agree that the law shouldn't specifically deal with firearms being carried into residences, I always ask before carrying a firearm into a private home, just out of extra respect for people's places of abode.
    I take my hat off on entering. I tip my hat to a lady, to a senior. I will not wear a cap and prefer not to countenance one worn inappropriately.

    I presume honor to be in the inconvenience endured, when is a hat doffed, when does a gun require acknowledgement, when is a salute required, what are the outward marks of civility?

    A presumption is true absent evidence to the contrary.
    Aristotle describes the modes of persuasion in his Rhetoric as Ethos, Logos, Kairos and Pathos. Don’t be pathetic or, worse, bathetic! Alexander Pope 1727 Many Painters who could never hit a Nose or an Eye, have with Felicity copied a Small-Pox, or been admirable at a Toad or a Red-Herring. And seldom are we without Genius's for Still Life, which they can work up and stiffen with incredible Accuracy. Peri Bathous vi

    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    While I agree that the law shouldn't specifically deal with firearms being carried into residences, I always ask before carrying a firearm into a private home, just out of extra respect for people's places of abode.



    People get offended by many things in which they may object to a person being in their home. Do you go through everything on that list?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post


    People get offended by many things in which they may object to a person being in their home. Do you go through everything on that list?
    Only any that have a reasonable probability of offending people which I am aware of. Obviously I don't worry about the gun when I know people don't mind!

    I certainly don't consider it a requirement, and also agree that removing one's hat is courteous as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Only any that have a reasonable probability of offending people which I am aware of. Obviously I don't worry about the gun when I know people don't mind!

    I certainly don't consider it a requirement, and also agree that removing one's hat is courteous as well.
    Who would complain about carrying? And if they did, why would I cross their threshold? I would not want to visit a home that does not respect America, even in America.

    But its your choice of course ... just food for thought.

    Got lizard friends? Get new ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    While I agree that the law shouldn't specifically deal with firearms being carried into residences, I always ask before carrying a firearm into a private home, just out of extra respect for people's places of abode.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Who would complain about carrying? And if they did, why would I cross their threshold? I would not want to visit a home that does not respect America, even in America.

    But its your choice of course ... just food for thought.

    Got lizard friends? Get new ones.
    Antis. Closet antis. Rabid antis. Borderline antis who don't know you carry, much less Openly Carry. You may enter their houses at their request, then have an awkward moment when they realize you're OCing. Guess how I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Do you also announce which way you vote in elections, Republican or Democrat, just out of extra respect? Or your sexual orientation? Or, nowdays, your gender identity?
    Point taken, though you're attempting to compare apples to oranges.

    The reason for requesting permission to carry in a PRIVATE residence may be even more important than the reason for removing one's hat:

    While keeping a hat on could be seen as an affront to honour, the denial of permission to enter a home WHILE ARMED is not only an affront to honour, but also to the character of the Lawfully-Armed Citizen.

    Why? Because in requiring you to disarm before you enter, the homeowner is slapping you in the face and loudly proclaiming that you cannot be trusted unless you have rendered yourself harmless/defenseless. In few words the homeowner equates the Lawfully-Armed Citizen to the violent criminals in society who rob, assault, and murder.

    Hardly the kind of person I'd wish to be an acquaintance with (exceptions may be made for those fence-sitter antis which can still be reached by logic).
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 05-16-2016 at 06:00 AM. Reason: Formatting
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    So you broad brush and do not differentiate between your invited guest, that enjoys your hospitality and protection, and the uninvited solicitor of license to trespass?
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-16-2016 at 06:53 AM.
    Aristotle describes the modes of persuasion in his Rhetoric as Ethos, Logos, Kairos and Pathos. Don’t be pathetic or, worse, bathetic! Alexander Pope 1727 Many Painters who could never hit a Nose or an Eye, have with Felicity copied a Small-Pox, or been admirable at a Toad or a Red-Herring. And seldom are we without Genius's for Still Life, which they can work up and stiffen with incredible Accuracy. Peri Bathous vi

    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Do you also announce which way you vote in elections, Republican or Democrat, just out of extra respect? Or your sexual orientation? Or, nowdays, your gender identity?
    Cmdr, quite a inappropriate analogy unworthy of you dontcha think?

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    A home owner is (could be?) liable for your acts, even self defense, under his home owner's insurance policy...or so a guest, or next door neighbor could argue.

    You, the guest, could defend yourself and then file a civil suit against the dude that invited you over, because he did not provide enough security to mitigate the need for you to use your firearm to defend yourself. Then, he could counter sue because you placed he, his family, and his other guests in harms way due to you using your firearm on his property.

    Tough choice on long weekends to be sure.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Do you also announce which way you vote in elections, Republican or Democrat, just out of extra respect? Or your sexual orientation? Or, nowdays, your gender identity?
    +1

    I don't ask folks if it is ok to wear my politically incorrect T-Shirt into their home. If they notice the shirt, or the gun, and are offended, they can certainly ask me to leave and I will.

    In the absence of bass-ackwards laws requiring special positive invite to enter with a gun (as opposed to expecting to be notified if a gun is unwelcome), if I happen to be concealing rather than OCing, I see no more reason to announce the presence of my firearm that I would to announce the presence of the pulled pork sandwich sitting my stomach or any other item in my pockets.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    It seems some folks view their firearm as merely a fashion accessory like a hat.

    I view mine as a lifesaving tool. I expect the legal presence of my firearm to be accommodated and tolerated to the same degree as my pen knife, multi-tool, an insulin pump, epi-pen, or other medical device.

    There is a line between being polite, and actually bowing down to lick the boots of those who oppress us.

    As OCers, I expect that nobody here intends to be forced into the closet recently vacated by the various sexual minorities. I believe I have a right to carry discretely. In general, I don't accept an obligation to do so to protect someone else's delicate feelings. If students or teachers in a college classroom (or even grade school) are uncomfortable with my peaceful exercise of my rights, they have a problem to work through, not me. Ditto for some soccer mom with her kids at the park or library, or the stranger walking down the street or sitting at the next table over in the restaurant where I'm dining.

    For all the minority sexual and fashion behavior that society is now mandated to tolerate and accept, I'm not about to happily accept discrimination, bigotry, and intolerance toward law-abiding, peaceful, polite gun owners who choose to carry a properly holstered handgun for self-defense.

    I obey the laws as I work to eliminate laws that infringe my RKBA.

    Given notice, I'll give the highest deference to a man's castle and his holy ground. If you want me to remove my hat, or don a yarmulke, remove my shoes, lower my voice, shout in praise, or not bring a firearm inside, I'll respect your wishes...one way or another. But I expect the resident or church to take the initiative to give reasonable notice. I just don't see any reason why I should have to probe and ask about whether a perfectly normal, lawful, lifesaving item is permissible or not....except for some poorly crafted laws in certain jurisdictions that need to be repealed.

    As for businesses, I'm not going to happily accept being required to sit at the back of the bus, or being refused service simply because I choose to be lawfully armed. I don't expect my homosexual colleagues to have to call ahead and check to see whether they and their partners will be welcome to hold hands or otherwise behave as a couple like any heterosexual couple would, while in the establishment. I don't see any reason why I should expect any less accommodation and tolerance for my holstered handgun, whether OCd, CCd, or CCCd that particular day.

    Laws that mandate me to get prior permission, or that allow business owners to discriminate against me are every bit as offensive as would be laws allowing business owners to discriminate against a same-sex couple holding hands ("You can be homosexual, you just can't act on it in this business").

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A home owner is (could be?) liable for your acts, even self defense, under his home owner's insurance policy...or so a guest, or next door neighbor could argue.

    You, the guest, could defend yourself and then file a civil suit against the dude that invited you over, because he did not provide enough security to mitigate the need for you to use your firearm to defend yourself. Then, he could counter sue because you placed he, his family, and his other guests in harms way due to you using your firearm on his property.
    Don't suppose you can provide a single, verifiable citation of this actually happening can you?

    After all, in theory, bad guys might target OCers to eliminate first....

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    ...In few words the homeowner equates the Lawfully-Armed Citizen to the violent criminals in society who rob, assault, and murder.
    Hey!! Watch it with that capital "C", will ya!

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    So you broad brush and do not differentiate between your invited guest, that enjoys your hospitality and protection, and the uninvited solicitor of license to trespass?
    Not entirely sure if your post is in response to mine.
    If it is, I thought we were speaking exclusively about "welcome" guests (invited, even, but then denied entry while armed or asked to leave until having disarmed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    SNIP...In few words the homeowner equates the Lawfully-Armed Citizen to the violent criminals in society who rob, assault, and murder.

    SNIP...
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hey!! Watch it with that capital "C", will ya!

    My bad.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    http://www.newson6.com/story/3178154...klahoma-senate
    -----
    OpenCarry.org comment: Most states do NOT require a permit to carry handguns openly. See map at http://www.opencarry.org/.../map-ope...-of-a-properly... showing that 30 states require no permit to open carry handguns. If anything is a right under the second amendment, it's the right to carry handguns openly. Rights cannot be limited by licensing schemes and other measures of prior restraint. Learn more about the open carry of properly holstered handguns and OpenCarry.org. And carry on!
    Is this dead? https://www.nraila.org/articles/2016...-pro-gun-bills

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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    It's dead, and I hope the OK folks find out exactly who the rats are that killed a bill that passed both chambers with overwhelming support. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...y-republicans/

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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    It's dead, and I hope the OK folks find out exactly who the rats are that killed a bill that passed both chambers with overwhelming support. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...y-republicans/
    Passed both chambers? Doesn't that mean it was delivered to the governor?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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