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Thread: Seller wants my PPP?

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    Seller wants my PPP?

    So my question is when I buy through a private sale. Do I have to give the seller my purchase permit? Just wondering (first time buying a pistol)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Dog View Post
    So my question is when I buy through a private sale. Do I have to give the seller my purchase permit? Just wondering (first time buying a pistol)
    There is nothing forcing the seller to sell, so yes he makes the rules. If he wants you to do the two step you can either do it, or not, but he still does not have to sell the gun. Make a copy of the PPP to show you had one at the time, along with getting a bill of sale. You can make rules too, which works the same way, there is nothing forcing you to buy.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Dog View Post
    So my question is when I buy through a private sale. Do I have to give the seller my purchase permit? Just wondering (first time buying a pistol)
    NC statute 14-402 mandates you have a ppp to buy a firearm and the PPP you received from the nice county sheriff is a one shot deal and given to the FFL or private seller at time of purchase for their records.

    Normally, you may purchase one pistol with one PPP.

    Normally you get a Bill of Sale, listing the PPP info on it as well as pertinent firearm info as well as their personal info from the seller showing you have legally consummated the deal.

    both documents are extremely important as they provide proof who you bought the firearm from and the seller can see you have been through a sheriff's background check.

    for $5 bucks to get the PPP it isn't worth the hassle if you are content with the firearm.

    sidebar: did you fire a minimum of a mag through the firearm and do the pieces of the firearm seem loose or too tight?

    pm if you have further questions

    ipse
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    PPP is a prior restraint and this requirement must be eliminated. It also seems to be a revenue scheme.
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    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    PPP is a prior restraint and this requirement must be eliminated. It also seems to be a revenue scheme.
    It is a Jim Crow law, but it is not without benefits. At least not until the Brady law, having one eliminates instant background check buying a gun, so no delays. It also can be used repeatedly to buy long guns with no IBC. Otherwise to get around the sometimes delays, that can take up to 3 days, one has to submit to the CHP process.

    Both the PPP, and the Brady law need to go to the trash. Background checks do not keep guns out of bad people's hands.
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    Wow. I had no idea a permit was needed to purchase a gun in North Carolina. That is onerous.

    Legally, is the purchase permit required for all firearms purchases? Or is it only required for purchase from dealers? Can a private seller legally sell a gun (and can a buyer legally purchase that gun) without the buyer having a permit to purchase?

    Charles
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Wow. I had no idea a permit was needed to purchase a gun in North Carolina. That is onerous.

    Legally, is the purchase permit required for all firearms purchases? Or is it only required for purchase from dealers? Can a private seller legally sell a gun (and can a buyer legally purchase that gun) without the buyer having a permit to purchase?

    Charles
    Or, a question related to yours posted: Can a permit be required?

    What if you found a gun on the ground with a note: free gun. Could you keep it?

  8. #8
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Wow. I had no idea a permit was needed to purchase a gun in North Carolina. That is onerous.

    Legally, is the purchase permit required for all firearms purchases? Or is it only required for purchase from dealers? Can a private seller legally sell a gun (and can a buyer legally purchase that gun) without the buyer having a permit to purchase?

    Charles
    as previously stated:

    NC statute 14-402, Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden, quote: (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase. unquote. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...gs_14-402.html

    PPP ~ $5. minor background check & no evidence required of firearms knowledge. turnaround: 3-5 days to get back

    CHP/CCW (used anonymously in statutes) >$75+/- for 8+hour class, $75> for county sheriff (only) to accomplish thorough background check to include mental health inquiry on requester. turnaround >50 days depending on the sheriff's backlog due to recent mandated mental health inquiry levied by legislators.

    NC citizens, as stated, must have these documents and FFL's are not mandated to access NICS and citizens are not delayed nor denied so walk out w/firearms in hand.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-03-2016 at 04:22 PM. Reason: sry forgot cite
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    When it was mentioned that a bill of sale was normal, was that in the statute, too, or just that most people there choose to have private registration paperwork floating around, unlike around here?
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    When it was mentioned that a bill of sale was normal, was that in the statute, too, or just that most people there choose to have private registration paperwork floating around, unlike around here?
    when i stated normally, if the sale were a 'friend 2 friend' sale, eh, give them a copy of my PPP and life goes on cuz i would know where to find you in the event something goes awry.

    however, as I indicated, in the event down the road, your copy of the BoS shows the nice LEs specifically where the firearm came from and that you, the buyer, 'complied' by proffering a PPP as listed on the seller's BoS.

    should cease any further judicial query, at least from your perspective.

    (i am not advocating disregard of nor am i able to ensure all NC citizens comply with PPP provisions in their private & personal sales and transfer of handguns)

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I guess if you like talking to LEO's on fishing expeditions, and you keep such private registration paperwork secure, okay, if both parties agree to it. As long as the OP is fully informed it's not required by the law, as the PPP is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guess if you like talking to LEO's on fishing expeditions, and you keep such private registration paperwork secure, okay, if both parties agree to it. As long as the OP is fully informed it's not required by the law, as the PPP is.
    no legal requirement to provide ppp/chp/Bos documentation to country sheriff.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guess if you like talking to LEO's on fishing expeditions, and you keep such private registration paperwork secure, okay, if both parties agree to it. As long as the OP is fully informed it's not required by the law, as the PPP is.
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    no legal requirement to provide ppp/chp/Bos documentation to country sheriff.

    ipse
    I think MAC702 may be referring to a Fed raid to steal your records, a la Ares Armor.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    I think MAC702 may be referring to a Fed raid to steal your records, a la Ares Armor.
    Just HAVING records is something I frown on.

    I should have clarified that I was referring to conditions for the sale, though, I think.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Display PPP or provide copy to seller? The more I read the laws on this topic the more anti-liberty this law becomes.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Display PPP or provide copy to seller? The more I read the laws on this topic the more anti-liberty this law becomes.
    tis my understanding the buyer gives his one time use PPP to the seller. buyer's CHP information is recorded as it were.

    not sure i see a problem OC for Me, VA's system is mandated FFLs go through the state police's background system, thanks to WA state's 594, private sellers 'are suppose to find' a FFL who does the back ground check of the buyer prior to transfer.

    this system, allows the country sheriff to accomplish a thorough background check and just gives you a piece of paper saying you are good to go for purchase of a handgun so when you find the sweetest little deal on the firearm you have been wanting all your life ~ you can walk out of the store with it in hand. no worries of denial or delay!!!

    ipse
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    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I would prefer an optional PPP system, not mandated but available. It is so much easier to buy a firearm with a PPP, they can also be used for long guns.

    I got tired of the common delays when the Brady nonsense law was passed I always kept at least a couple PPP with me, it was well worth the five bucks apiece.
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    Folks who get outraged at shall issue permits seem to be ok with prior restraint just to purchase a firearm. I'm frankly shocked.

    The proper response at the State level is to not interfere with private sales at all. That is what my State does. No legal requirement for any paperwork at all. The onus is on the purchaser not to buy a gun if he is a prohibited person. Period.

    My State also runs a State level instant background check for purchases from FFLs. It probably ties into some national Brady check but so far as I know has never had any material delay problems. When I've purchased from FFLs, the phone call runs less than 3 minutes, after completing the 4473. Those with a valid carry permit in hand don't get charged for the check which otherwise runs about $6 if I recall.

    Prior to the Brady nonsense, we had no background check at all, just the completion of the 4473 for the FFL's bound book.

    Permits to purchase. Background checks that take longer than a couple of minutes to complete in the age of computers and massive government data bases. Pretty draconian in my view.

    Charles
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    snippp....

    The proper response at the State level is to not interfere with private sales at all. That is what my State does. No legal requirement for any paperwork at all. The onus is on the purchaser not to buy a gun if he is a prohibited person. Period.

    My State also runs a State level instant background check for purchases from FFLs. It probably ties into some national Brady check but so far as I know has never had any material delay problems. When I've purchased from FFLs, the phone call runs less than 3 minutes, after completing the 4473. Those with a valid carry permit in hand don't get charged for the check which otherwise runs about $6 if I recall.

    Prior to the Brady nonsense, we had no background check at all, just the completion of the 4473 for the FFL's bound book.

    Permits to purchase. Background checks that take longer than a couple of minutes to complete in the age of computers and massive government data bases. Pretty draconian in my view.

    Charles
    quote: Authorized gun dealers are required to conduct instant background checks that must be approved by the Public Safety Bureau of Criminal Identification, or BCI for short. Those individuals that have a valid license for a concealed firearm are not subject to the background check or fee as long as the license is presented at the time of the sale. unquote http://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/utah-gun-laws

    so mate, certainly sounds like UTAH's concealed permit is a benefit to firearm buyers as it circumvents the citizen's necessity to endure BCI's background check!!

    oh wait, as has previously discussed, NC citizens who purchase firearms do not have a background check either as they present their CHPs or PPP during purchase...

    you know charles, i can see from your perspective that you are absolutely right...Utah's purchase requirements do sound, how did you put it, quote: Pretty draconian in my view. unquote.

    ipse

    added...per your statement about the onus in Utah is on the person buying...why does the BCI have out of 105K queries over the last year a 2.3K denials? oh, could it be there are some Utah citizens who are unscrupulous and try to sneak thru and lie to purchase a firearm? http://bci.utah.gov/wp-content/uploa.../04/2016Q1.pdf
    Last edited by solus; 05-04-2016 at 10:38 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    <snip>

    Permits to purchase. Background checks that take longer than a couple of minutes to complete in the age of computers and massive government data bases. Pretty draconian in my view.

    Charles
    When I was a FFL in a state that had a call-in BR chk....I would either get a a) approval b) denial or c) delay

    With either (a) or (c) I transferred the gun. Well, for those I actually did call-in ... I did many w/o calling. And many w/o a 4473 form being completed.

    And in states where I was supposed to send the state something memorializing the transaction, I never sent any, ever.

    ATF/state/gov't issues : none out side of law enforcement trying to tell me to give up my FFL, which I always showed them the door...Adios Poncho !

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    When I was a FFL in a state that had a call-in BR chk....I would either get a a) approval b) denial or c) delay

    With either (a) or (c) I transferred the gun. Well, for those I actually did call-in ... I did many w/o calling. And many w/o a 4473 form being completed.

    And in states where I was supposed to send the state something memorializing the transaction, I never sent any, ever.

    ATF/state/gov't issues : none out side of law enforcement trying to tell me to give up my FFL, which I always showed them the door...Adios Poncho !
    For clarification - are you admitting to or suggesting breaking the law?

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so mate, certainly sounds like UTAH's concealed permit is a benefit to firearm buyers as it circumvents the citizen's necessity to endure BCI's background check!!
    Your material is in error. Those with permits are exempt from the fee, not from the instant Brady Check required for all FFL sales.

    Sadly, yet again, you seem far more interested in "challenging" (your word) something I've written, than with civilly obtaining clarifying information. Why are you so much more interested in creating scat than in simply having a polite exchange with me?

    1-NO paperwork or background check legally required at all for private party sales.

    2-FFLs are required to do an instant background check pursuant to federal Brady law. To minimize delays, Utah runs this check themselves rather than having dealers use the national system. There are pros and cons to this, but delays are so rare that no gun owners in Utah would accept as "advantageous" some need to get a purchase permit from a local sheriff. Our local police are not involved in firearm purchases at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    added...per your statement about the onus in Utah is on the person buying...why does the BCI have out of 105K queries over the last year a 2.3K denials? oh, could it be there are some Utah citizens who are unscrupulous and try to sneak thru and lie to purchase a firearm?
    What does the Brady check rejection rate have to do with the legal onus being on the buyer rather than on private sellers? Again, if you have a sincere question, I'm happy to clarify. But you seem more interested in creating conflict than you do in any civil exchange.

    Why is there a ~2.25% rejection rate by BCI? Well the answer is right there on page 2. The most common reasons for denials are outstanding warrants, and felony convictions. These are followed by Drug use that prohibits possession, other State level reason to be a prohibited person, Domestic Violence, then down to protective orders, pending felony charges, and a couple of dishonorable discharges.

    Should we be shocked that some number of criminals attempted to violate the law by trying to buy a gun when they were not legally permitted to do so?

    Are there likely to be some of these persons who honestly didn't know they were prohibited? Probably.

    Sadly, just like at the federal level, Utah cannot show anywhere near the number of arrests and prosecutions, much less convictions for what should be very easy to prosecute crimes as there were denials. In other words, background checks don't actually do much to prevent prohibited persons from getting guns since they remain free on the street to illegally obtain guns via other means if they desire.

    Now, in the future, if you have questions, if there is something you don't understand, if you'd just like to have a chat, may I suggest you be a little less sanctimonious in your tone?

    Good day

    Charles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    I think MAC702 may be referring to a Fed raid to steal your records, a la Ares Armor.
    http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/02...alled-illegal/

    Or EP ^^ getting their non-guns stolen

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Your material is in error. Those with permits are exempt from the fee, not from the instant Brady Check required for all FFL sales.

    snip

    Now, in the future, if you have questions, if there is something you don't understand, if you'd just like to have a chat, may I suggest you be a little less sanctimonious in your tone?

    Good day

    Charles
    in usual fashion mate, when challenged you unequivocally state the other person's material is wrong, or insult them, or produce a rambling tirade...

    1. i provided a cite for my material, and in usual fashion, you yet again have failed to produce a cite stating my subject matter is in error. please provide such a cite IAW current forum policy.
    2. Utah is exempted by the ATF from doing background checks via FBI NICS and classifies the state as a point of contact, as such, all FFL background checks are routed through BCI.

    let me reiterate and once again refute your misinformation...quoting utah statute: An individual with a concealed firearm permit issued under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Firearm Act, is exempt from the background check and corresponding fee required in this section for the purchase of a firearm ifa) the individual presents the individual's concealed firearm permit to the dealer prior to purchase of the firearm; and
    (b) the dealer verifies with the bureau that the individual's concealed firearm permit is valid. unquote

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    For clarification - are you admitting to or suggesting breaking the law?

    Forum Rules
    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
    The ATF found nothing wrong with my business workings ... so your query is already a settled issue. I also did not advocate or tell anyone on how to run their business in the post...a FFL would know that this is too complicated to run their business based on just the posted information. The law is very complex ~ and who decides what is illegal or not? That's up to juries and judges. Right?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-05-2016 at 02:10 AM.

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