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Thread: Not excessive force?

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Not excessive force?

    How say you?
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/31866555/...e-was-too-much

    Me, I'm tired of paying for other's transgressions.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    From the linked story:

    In the Commonwealth, lost [sic] prevention can detain a subject for an hour and has civil immunity from doing so.
    That officer can also lay hands on someone he believes to be shoplifter.
    "You can use the exact degree of force that is absolutely necessary to accomplish the detention," explained Benjamin.

    What!?!?

    So if some dime-an-hour, wanna-be cop decides that they think you stuffed a bolt in your pocket, they can kidnap you for an hour with the use of any level of force they can muster? This doesn't end well for someone who is prepared to defend themselves, who did not steal, and perceives such an attack as an imminent threat of bodily harm - especially if the loss prevention person is non-uniformed. Then it's just some maniac trying to kill you!

    Is this guy lying to bolster his perceived authority? I have never heard anything like this before.

    TFred

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    In what way is this different from, or the same as, the receipt checkers at Wally World or at Greentop
    JFT 96

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    18.2-105.1 . Detention of suspected shoplifter.
    A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who has probable cause to believe that a person has shoplifted in violation of 18.2-95 or 18.2-96 or 18.2-103 , on the premises of the merchant, may detain such person for a period not to exceed one hour pending arrival of a law-enforcement officer.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    In what way is this different from, or the same as, the receipt checkers at Wally World or at Greentop
    I am virtually certain that Wally World illegally profiles. I'm a middle-aged white male, and I have never been asked to show a receipt at Wally World. Of course, most of the people I do observe displaying their receipt seem to be responding to the fact that there is someone there to look at it, rather than any actual request to see it.. I just nod my head in their general direction, sometimes mumble something that could be hello or good bye, and never break stride.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 05-02-2016 at 08:20 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Most states the LP officer must see the act, and not take eyes off the shoplifter until they are apprehended. Not sure about Va, but if he followed those rules I have no sympathy for her.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    while i know this is VA and do not wish to sidetrack discussion, but unfortunately curiosity got the better of me and lo & behold much to my surprise NC also has a similar statute 14-72.1 including merchant LP immunity from civil repercussions yet JQPublic does not have citizen arrest qualified immunity to stop anybody.

    WTF??

    a query applicable in both states:

    ...if merchant's LP believes or perceives this gentleman has shoplifted and attempts to physically restrain an armed individual for detention for a 'reasonable' amount of time (specifically specified in NC statute) or 60 minutes (as specified by VA statute) might not like the outcome.

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    How say you?
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/31866555/...e-was-too-much

    Me, I'm tired of paying for other's transgressions.
    Innocent until proved guilty. Is it unreasonable force ? Up to a jury to decide. Motto of story: know your arrest statues and civil remedies...some remedies would amaze you.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-02-2016 at 10:21 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Not excessive force? Apparently not.

    VA, NC, and MO? It seems that many (all?) states have such a law. RSMo 537.125. Shoplifting--detention of suspect by merchant--liability presumption.

    I will be contacting my reps to have a criminal penalty added for a wrongful detention.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    while i know this is VA and do not wish to sidetrack discussion, but unfortunately curiosity got the better of me and lo & behold much to my surprise NC also has a similar statute 14-72.1 including merchant LP immunity from civil repercussions yet JQPublic does not have citizen arrest qualified immunity to stop anybody.

    WTF??

    a query applicable in both states:

    ...if merchant's LP believes or perceives this gentleman has shoplifted and attempts to physically restrain an armed individual for detention for a 'reasonable' amount of time (specifically specified in NC statute) or 60 minutes (as specified by VA statute) might not like the outcome.

    ipse
    Nothing wrong with examining other state laws when looking at a specific state. It gives the readers a better view of the issue.
    And for possible desired legislation in VA.

    And courts also can look to other states' legislation too. I don't think its a sidetrack ... but a further examination of the issue.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    How say you?
    Impossible to say.

    I didn't see where there was any footage prior to the woman being on the ground detained by the Loss Prevention Officer (LPO).

    IF the LPO just tackled the woman without warning, that would be excessive and I think grounds for significant resistance by both the woman and anyone with her. Unknown men tackling women as they go about their business is a very serious matter, no?

    OTOH, if the LPO made verbal contact first and the woman refused to stop, then I think the force is probably not excessive. We've had several reports in our (Utah) media recently of shoplifters getting very violent with LPOs. And once the thief leaves the premises (beyond the parking lot), I'd guess it is going to be all but impossible to ever make a case and recover the stolen property.

    Given the woman's past record, and her refusal to even assert her innocence of the shoplifting charge, and her being charged with "shoving the loss prevention officer", I'm going to bet we have a case much closer to the latter than the former. How does she shove the LPO if he just tackles her without warning? Sounds to me like she was confronted by the LPO, got physical, and is now crying foul that the LPO returned the favor to physically detain her until the police arrived.

    From the linked story:

    "If I was doing anything wrong or I wasn't, he didn't have the rights to put his hands on me," said [the accused shoplifter].

    The 31-year-old was charged with shoplifting and shoving the loss prevention officer.
    ...
    "Im innocent until proven guilty. But, even to that matter, if it was $5, $10, $1,500, there are ways ... I know there are ways around it," she said.
    ...
    She has been convicted of petit larceny in the past.

    I too am well past tired of paying more for what I buy to cover what the parasites among us think they have a right to steal. Moreover, we all suffer the inconvenience of more strict return / refund policies because thieves so often steal merchandise and then walk back into the store a short time later to return it for a refund.

    How often is anyone wrongly accused of shoplifting by an LPO vs how often do shoplifters make a clean getaway?

    Those who don't like being detained by LPOs should avoid shoplifting.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Impossible to say.

    I didn't see where there was any footage prior to the woman being on the ground detained by the Loss Prevention Officer (LPO).

    IF the LPO just tackled the woman without warning, that would be excessive and I think grounds for significant resistance by both the woman and anyone with her. Unknown men tackling women as they go about their business is a very serious matter, no?

    OTOH, if the LPO made verbal contact first and the woman refused to stop, then I think the force is probably not excessive. We've had several reports in our (Utah) media recently of shoplifters getting very violent with LPOs. And once the thief leaves the premises (beyond the parking lot), I'd guess it is going to be all but impossible to ever make a case and recover the stolen property.

    Given the woman's past record, and her refusal to even assert her innocence of the shoplifting charge, and her being charged with "shoving the loss prevention officer", I'm going to bet we have a case much closer to the latter than the former. How does she shove the LPO if he just tackles her without warning? Sounds to me like she was confronted by the LPO, got physical, and is now crying foul that the LPO returned the favor to physically detain her until the police arrived.

    From the linked story:

    "If I was doing anything wrong or I wasn't, he didn't have the rights to put his hands on me," said [the accused shoplifter].

    The 31-year-old was charged with shoplifting and shoving the loss prevention officer.
    ...
    "Im innocent until proven guilty. But, even to that matter, if it was $5, $10, $1,500, there are ways ... I know there are ways around it," she said.
    ...
    She has been convicted of petit larceny in the past.

    I too am well past tired of paying more for what I buy to cover what the parasites among us think they have a right to steal. Moreover, we all suffer the inconvenience of more strict return / refund policies because thieves so often steal merchandise and then walk back into the store a short time later to return it for a refund.

    How often is anyone wrongly accused of shoplifting by an LPO vs how often do shoplifters make a clean getaway?

    Those who don't like being detained by LPOs should avoid shoplifting.

    Charles
    +1000

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    I've been accused of shoplifting...(my momma taught me not to touch what isn't yours & I have followed this advice) ...

    Ask a Libertarian to show a receipt when leaving a store and you'll get the Libertarian-required response

    I've even have had a cop say that I stole his badge....

    The only thing I have ever stolen is politicians' dreams of winning public office....and the hearts of the ladies
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-03-2016 at 04:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I've been accused of shoplifting...(my momma taught me not to touch what isn't yours & I have followed this advice) ...

    ...

    I've even have had a cop say that I stole his badge....

    The only thing I have ever stolen is politicians' dreams of winning public office....and the hearts of the ladies
    Sure you have....on all counts no doubt.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Ask a Libertarian to show a receipt when leaving a store and you'll get the Libertarian-required response.
    And here I thought Libertarians were all about respecting the private property rights of others. If a business has a policy of customers showing receipts as they leave the store, why wouldn't a true l/Libertarian respect that policy by either adhering to it or shopping elsewhere?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Sure you have....on all counts no doubt.




    And here I thought Libertarians were all about respecting the private property rights of others. If a business has a policy of customers showing receipts as they leave the store, why wouldn't a true l/Libertarian respect that policy by either adhering to it or shopping elsewhere?

    Charles
    A customer is not part of the business. Whose property is it? Once I pay for it its mine ... I can eat the receipt if I want to. Nor is there any law saying that they have to provide a receipt.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A customer is not part of the business. Whose property is it? Once I pay for it its mine ... I can eat the receipt if I want to. Nor is there any law saying that they have to provide a receipt.
    Well not quite.

    http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/t...ection8.7-106/

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/receipt-requirements-law-differs-card-network-rules-1585.php

    http://smallbusiness.chron.com/laws-...pts-36599.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    All links seem to apply to electronic fund transfers (credit/debit card). Cash transaction? A bar napkin could be the receipt. The LPO better have documented proof that she stole something. If the "goods" were not on her when he assaulted her he should be in deep kimchi...felony kimchi...and rightly so.

    The affront to our liberty is the fact that a LPO is given similar powers to a cop. And it appears that he enjoys QI more so than a cop.

    LPOs should be very careful if they decide to get their cop on and be 100% sure before they act...if they enjoy their good health.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    All links seem to apply to electronic fund transfers (credit/debit card). Cash transaction? A bar napkin could be the receipt. The LPO better have documented proof that she stole something. If the "goods" were not on her when he assaulted her he should be in deep kimchi...felony kimchi...and rightly so.

    The affront to our liberty is the fact that a LPO is given similar powers to a cop. And it appears that he enjoys QI more so than a cop.

    LPOs should be very careful if they decide to get their cop on and be 100% sure before they act...if they enjoy their good health.
    Yes, links apply primarily to electronic transfers. My "not quite" reply w/links was to david mc's statement that there were no laws applicable.

    My personal position is that the instant I pay for goods, they are my personal property and I do not have to prove anything. The burden is on one who thinks the opposite, as is the potential liability for being wrong.

    Twice the issue has been pushed with me. Both times all systems went full stop, when I responded, "Are you accusing me of shoplifting?"
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    All links seem to apply to electronic fund transfers (credit/debit card). Cash transaction? A bar napkin could be the receipt. The LPO better have documented proof that she stole something. If the "goods" were not on her when he assaulted her he should be in deep kimchi...felony kimchi...and rightly so.

    The affront to our liberty is the fact that a LPO is given similar powers to a cop. And it appears that he enjoys QI more so than a cop.

    LPOs should be very careful if they decide to get their cop on and be 100% sure before they act...if they enjoy their good health.

    OC, they have Qualified Immunity...they do not have to be careful...this is what caused me to throw up in the corner. of the round room..yet JQPublic has no such statutory protection.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    OC, they have Qualified Immunity...they do not have to be careful...this is what caused me to throw up in the corner. of the round room..yet JQPublic has no such statutory protection.

    ipse
    The company is still liable, and it is much easier to get a LPO fired. Trust me I got one fired, took a while but I got Wally World to get rid of him. You never see that kind of response with LEO's usually takes years instead of months. Since LPO's do not get paid what LEO's do, and are mostly non union it does have an affect on them.

    Plus if the company training specially sets down criteria as to proper laws for LP, and following them, they lose their liability. If an officer/LPO knows he is breaking the law, and it is clearly defined the courts have tossed QI.

    Not sure about Va, but in NC the LPO MUST see the act, and cannot take eyes off that person until they clear the last chance to pay. This is asked by the magistrate when the LPO signs the papers against the accused. Every shoplifter I detained, and sometimes with force, I had to go to the magistrate after the arrest by police. They always asked for the details of the detaining, and those important steps.

    There is no doubt that the lady in the OP shoplifted, prior record, refused to deny. It is clear she was resisting, and IMO the LPO used the proper amount of force. I had a SL try to punch me, he got knocked out.

    IMO nobody should get QI, if they are wrong they are wrong, if right then they have no worries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I am virtually certain that Wally World illegally profiles. I'm a middle-aged white male, and I have never been asked to show a receipt at Wally World. Of course, most of the people I do observe displaying their receipt seem to be responding to the fact that there is someone there to look at it, rather than any actual request to see it.. I just nod my head in their general direction, sometimes mumble something that could be hello or good bye, and never break stride.

    TFred
    Actually; I, a senior citizen of pale complexion have been asked to show receipts at Wally World on a couple occasions, both when leaving with a large item in a shopping cart. But then again in Wyoming there aren't a whole lot of other complexions around

    Shortly after moving to Grand Junction CO I had a LP guy follow me around the store (OK I was OCing). He was easy to spot, decked out like some NY Chitty corp. executive's idea of what people "out west" dress like (cowboy hat, western cut shirt, leather vest, blue jeans & cowboy boots), followed me through the shoe (boot) dept, to hardware, to automotive so I headed to clothing, lost him behind a tall display, so I ducked down below the clothing racks and circled back behind him. I could see him standing on tip toes looking for me, so I walked up behind him, taped him on the shoulder, when he turned around I said "If you're looking for me I'll be over in sporting goods. By the way, you look ridiculous and you stand out like a sore thumb, try dressing like a regular person".
    Last edited by F350; 05-04-2016 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A customer is not part of the business. Whose property is it? Once I pay for it its mine ... I can eat the receipt if I want to. Nor is there any law saying that they have to provide a receipt.
    Whether customers are part of the business or not seems to be irrelevant.

    What I think you're saying--and please correct me if I'm wrong--is that the Libertarian response is that if the law allows you to refuse to show a receipt, then it matters not what policy the store has.

    My mistake. I thought Libertarians were strictly respectful about a private property owner's right to set whatever terms (ie policies) for the use of his property that the owner wanted to. If the conditions were objectionable, the Libertarian would find someplace else with more agreeable conditions.

    It has been a while since I was a Libertarian so I appreciate you updating me on current state-of-the-art Libertarian views.

    Did I miss anything or get anything wrong?

    Thanks

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The merchant's right ends where the customer's right begins. Sound familiar?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The merchant's right ends where the customer's right begins. Sound familiar?
    Absolutely. The great question is always where that line actually is.

    To be clear, I'm not faulting anyone who ignores or violates a store owner's private policy of checking (some number of) receipts as customers exit the store. If the law doesn't require customers to abide that policy, I think customers are free to ignore it.

    Indeed, as I've made clear, I don't feel obliged to abide "No Gun" policies at Utah businesses or hospitals. In Utah, such policies at businesses (including hospitals) have no force of law. And our trespass laws set a pretty high bar for such locations to claim a customer/visitor engaged in the normal and expected conduct in such locations is "trespassing" simply because he is armed in contradiction of said policies.

    It is just that certain members of the forum have been rather vocal and persistent in claiming that I am engaging in some great violation of private property rights for my choice to legally carry my self-defense firearm into businesses and hospitals in Utah that have policies against the possession of guns by private citizens.

    It is fascinating to watch such persons not utter a peep of complaint at those who ignore receipt-check policies at private businesses. Ditto when you provide your rational for ignoring "No Gun" policies (when legal) in certain businesses.

    It is enough to make me think that some folks are basing their attacks more on who is violating the policy than they are on any consistent principles.

    I simply can't see any rational, logical, or principled difference between a "No Gun" policy that some folks think I must honor and a "Receipt Check" policy that apparently those same folks have no issues being violated.

    I do see two material differences between a "No Gun" policy and a "Receipt Check" policy:

    1-Being disarmed leaves me at increased risk of grave bodily harm while being asked to let a store employee check my receipt is no worse than a minor inconvenience.

    2-Disarming me provides no material benefit to the store, while a receipt check may provide some protection against shop lifting.

    Anyway, it will be interesting to see what kind of "Yay, but..." response may be forthcoming from those who are persistently outraged at my ignoring of "No Gun" policies, but who have remained mute on your violations of such policies, and on those here who freely admit to not complying with "Receipt Check" policies.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Whether customers are part of the business or not seems to be irrelevant.

    What I think you're saying--and please correct me if I'm wrong--is that the Libertarian response is that if the law allows you to refuse to show a receipt, then it matters not what policy the store has.

    My mistake. I thought Libertarians were strictly respectful about a private property owner's right to set whatever terms (ie policies) for the use of his property that the owner wanted to. If the conditions were objectionable, the Libertarian would find someplace else with more agreeable conditions.

    It has been a while since I was a Libertarian so I appreciate you updating me on current state-of-the-art Libertarian views.

    Did I miss anything or get anything wrong?

    Thanks

    Charles
    Its my property once I pay for it. Here's my conditions: I own it, don't ask me to prove it .. you have the burden to show I stole it.

    A person asking to see a receipt? Clear that he has no evidence that I stole it. Want to call me a thief? Bad idea.

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