Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: A customer at a Phoneix McDonald’s got robbed of his gun, don't be that guy.

  1. #1
    Regular Member DTOM2nd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    17

    A customer at a Phoneix McDonald’s got robbed of his gun, don't be that guy.

    Open carriers and those planning to do so, please read the following article. Maybe something you missed out. http://defensivepopulace.net/planing...ourself-first/

    Coincidentally, I'm going to be traveling for the first time to Arizona in two weeks. Landing at Phoenix to head up to the Grand Canyon.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    So this author who can't even spell an important word in his title is completely unaware of the existence of retention holsters and treats the issue as a false dichotomy.

    Additionally, as someone who's OC'd in AZ most of my life, I can see why something so unheard of is newsworthy. I'll stop OC'ing and buy a lottery ticket.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-02-2016 at 09:38 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  3. #3
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,885
    considering the firearm was, quote: ..surveillance footage shows him reach into the back pocket of a man ordering at the counter and remove a pistol. unquote

    additionally this event occurred almost thirty days ago...
    http://www.abc15.com/news/region-pho...nalds-customer

    however, i'm more impress the BG got caught by the individual who lost the firearm who then challenged the BG to return the firearm and had his own firearm pointed at him and fortunately survived the encounter but failed to regain custody of his firearm.

    bottom line the term dumbchit comes to mind.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,737
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    So this author who can't even spell an important word in his title is completely unaware of the existence of retention holsters and treats the issue as a false dichotomy.

    Additionally, as someone who's OC'd in AZ most of my life, I can see why something so unheard of is newsworthy. I'll stop OC'ing and buy a lottery ticket.
    Spell, he can't even use the proper tense of words.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    What we really have is an incompetent CCer, NOT someone OCing. Frankly, that is no surprise - some CCers do tend to depend waay too much on the "invisibility" of their gun.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Animalou812's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Erlanger, Kentucky
    Posts
    68
    I couldn't agree more. Some do believe just because their shirt covers it all is well. While imprinting the entire time.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Back pocket? Mexican-ish Carry?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ... i'm more impress the BG got caught by the individual who lost the firearm who then challenged the BG to return the firearm and had his own firearm pointed at him and fortunately survived the encounter ...
    To go on off this tangent, a long time ago some writers would advocate carrying a pistol unchambered, or something with a safety, for the express reason that if someone else snatched it, there was a decent chance they wouldn't know what to do to make it fire.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    As I expected, the spelling in the title of the article is now corrected. Care to guess how the author learned of his mistake so quickly? Yet, the content is the same, which means he is purposely using it to mislead people, and is not just the idiot he was pretending to be.

    He's also deleted all the comments. Surprise, surprise.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-03-2016 at 10:59 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  10. #10
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,885
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    To go on off this tangent, a long time ago some writers would advocate carrying a pistol unchambered, or something with a safety, for the express reason that if someone else snatched it, there was a decent chance they wouldn't know what to do to make it fire.
    actually surprised he didn't try to buy it back...'yo foo...here's a hundred if you give it back...'

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    As I expected, the spelling in the title of the article is now corrected. Care to guess how the author learned of his mistake so quickly? Yet, the content is the same, which means he is purposely using it to mislead people, and is not just the idiot he was pretending to be.

    He's also deleted all the comments. Surprise, surprise.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Either that website/article doesn't generate much interest, or any comments that don't fall in line with the original poster's are being moderated to non-existence.

    Tanstaafl on May 3, 2016 at 1:50 pm said:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    “… This was a case of concealed carry becoming unconcealed…”
    Apparently the original poster of this article is unaware of the difference between an openly carried firearm and a concealed firearm that becomes visible.

    “Planning on Concealed Carrying? Educate yourself on pitfalls first” would have been a much more honest headline.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 05-03-2016 at 01:52 PM.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Either that website/article doesn't generate much interest, or any comments that don't fall in line with the original poster's are being moderated to non-existence.
    The first time I looked at the article, there were comments. There are none now. They've been actively deleted, so you can expect that future ones will never leave purgatory.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Who actually cares...
    In case it wasn't obvious, the only reason I brought up the misspelling in the title was because the OP/author was holding this article up as a reliable and legitimate news piece, and lack of the most basic of proofreading is further evidence to the contrary.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-03-2016 at 03:03 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  15. #15
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Árida Zona
    Posts
    1,648
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    What we really have is an incompetent CCer, NOT someone OCing. Frankly, that is no surprise - some CCers do tend to depend waay too much on the "invisibility" of their gun.
    Agreed. "(Incompetent) CCer" is the most applicable term.

    I have yet to understand the logic behind the author's logic here:

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    kauboy on May 3, 2016 at 12:43 pm said:
    Speaking of educating oneself first, this is not a case of open carry. This was a case of concealed carry becoming unconcealed. The gun carrier was carrying the firearm in a pocket holster in his back left pocket. When his arms were raised on the counter, the gun became exposed.

    Reply ↓

    Defensive Populance on May 3, 2016 at 1:00 pm said:
    Then that became open carry. Open Carry means the firearm is visible to common observation. It doesn’t matter if it gets exposed briefly.
    If he was CC, he surly did a horrible job in doing so and carrying a gun in his pocket without the holster is full can of worms
    By the logic that "Unconcealed CC is actuall OC, then OC in a vehicle is CC.

    What about if I walk down the street and a police officer approaches me from my left side while I'm OCing on my right side? The officer's "common observation" didn't allow him to see my sidearm, so did I just CC (possibly illegally)?

    Thankfully, these kinds of outlandish and legally "vague" terms have been fixed here in AZ.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 05-03-2016 at 06:17 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Agreed. "(Incompetent) CCer" is the most applicable term.

    I have yet to understand the logic behind the author's logic here:



    By the logic that "Unconcealed CC is actuall OC, then OC in a vehicle is CC.

    What about if I walk down the street and a police officer approaches me from my left side while I'm OCing on my right side? The officer's "common observation" didn't allow him to see my sidearm, so did I just CC (possibly illegally)?

    Thankfully, these kinds of outlandish and legally "vague" terms have been fixed here in AZ.
    General comment -

    Available to "common observation" does not depend on where the carrier stands/sits etc., whether in a phone booth, strong side to the wall in a restaurant, in another room, or with a hedge between himself and the viewer. It is entirely dependent on where viewer is and if he/she is in a direct line of sight to see it.

    Exception noted for states that require a pemit to OC in a vehicle.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member California Right To Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    463

    Thumbs up If your opponent can't see your weapon then your weapon is concealed.

    "The policy underlying the prohibition against concealed weapons is based on the protection of those persons who may come into contact with a weapon bearer. If a weapon is not concealed, one may take notice of the weapon and its owner and govern oneself accordingly, but no such opportunity for cautious behavior or self-preservation exists for one encountering the bearer of a concealed weapon. In light of this policy, the question whether a particular weapon was concealed should be considered from the point of view of one approaching the location of the weapon, and the intent of the defendant as to concealment should not be considered, since a defendant's innocent intent does not make a concealed weapon any more visible." People v. Mitchell, 209 Cal. App. 4th 1364 - Cal: Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate Dist., 1st Div. (2012) at 1371.

    Only someone like Bob Owens and his kind would say that a handgun carried in one's back pocket or tucked in the small of one's back is an example of "Open Carry." If one's would be opponent cannot see the weapon then the weapon is concealed regardless of whether or not people standing behind the bearer of the weapon can see it.

    Lost on the proponents of concealed carry who claim that there is a Second Amendment right to carry a weapon concealed for the purpose of self-defense is that it was well established that the use of a concealed weapon to kill one's opponent was in virtually every case murder when the Second Amendment was enacted. For example, see Mason's Case (1756) Foster 132 cited in A Treatise on The Pleas of the Crown, Volume 1, Hawkins 1803, pgs 239-241 in which the concealment of a sword beneath the defendant's coat and a failure to give his opponent (his brother) an opportunity to retreat (he advanced on his brother as fast as he retreated) or defend himself from the sword once it was drawn was clear proof of willful murder. The defendant and his brother were armed with cudgels (short fighting sticks) with which they had earlier been fighting. One brother left and returned with a sword concealed beneath his coat, he feigned to resume the fight with his cudgel then dropped it and drew his hidden sword and killed his brother.

    This was not an outlier. If one was engaged in an otherwise fair fight, even if one did not start the fight, and he produced a weapon either concealed on his person or concealed about him and used it to kill his opponent then he had committed murder whereas an otherwise fair fight in which the arms were openly carried which resulted in the death of one's opponent was, at worst, manslaughter (which was pardonable assuming a jury would even convict).

    Shortly after the Second Amendment was enacted the mere carriage of a weapon concealed became a crime because then, as now, the world was full of people eager to use their "tactical/secret" advantage (a concealed weapon) upon others.

    As proof, one need look no further than the comments made by the concealed carry proponents here -> http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05...d-gun-arizona/

    I sympathize with Richard Nascak of Florida Carry, Inc., (who is no fan of mine) in his unsuccessful attempts to reason with these folks but how does one reason with someone who brags about his own cowardice as if it were a virtue?
    Concealed carry is of no use to me, I don't carry a purse.

    Charles Nichols – President of California Right To Carry
    http://CaliforniaRightToCarry.org

  18. #18
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Árida Zona
    Posts
    1,648
    In this case, the sidearm was not obviously displayed (so not Openly Carried). Kinda like wearing a shirt that covers all but the tip of an OWB holster ("Discreet OC", I believe one member called it in a thread by the same name). Is it OC or accidental display of a CC'ed holstered sidearm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    General comment -

    Available to "common observation" does not depend on where the carrier stands/sits etc., whether in a phone booth, strong side to the wall in a restaurant, in another room, or with a hedge between himself and the viewer. It is entirely dependent on where viewer is and if he/she is in a direct line of sight to see it.

    Exception noted for states that require a pemit to OC in a vehicle.
    Duly noted, I was simply pointing out that intent to carry OPENLY seems to be thrown out the window entirely when the method of carry is dependent on the viewer alone. Is it the OCer's fault that the LEO is unable to see through the carrier's corporal mass to the sidearm worn prominently on the hip? Likewise with OC in a car. Just to be clear, this is not what happened with the gentleman at McD's.

    Using California Right to Carry's cites as the start of a discussion, how much more visible can an OCer really make his OCed sidearm?

    I understand the nuanced reality of the situation in some states, which can also criminalize behaviour that cannot be helped and should be entirely legal (being opaque, for one).
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    ...Kinda like wearing a shirt that covers all but the tip of an OWB holster ("Discreet OC", I believe one member called it in a thread by the same name). Is it OC or accidental display of a CC'ed holstered sidearm?...
    I wouldn't even call it accidental. It's negligent display of a concealed firearm, not that it's illegal. I'm just using common words, not legal terms. There's nothing discreet about it.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  20. #20
    Regular Member Turbod'1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Henderson, NV now Texas. I move a lot.
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    As I expected, the spelling in the title of the article is now corrected. Care to guess how the author learned of his mistake so quickly? Yet, the content is the same, which means he is purposely using it to mislead people, and is not just the idiot he was pretending to be.

    He's also deleted all the comments. Surprise, surprise.
    Of more interest are the links he provides in his 'assessment' that are either missing or point to OC fails...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Turbod'1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Henderson, NV now Texas. I move a lot.
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by California Right To Carry View Post
    "The policy underlying the prohibition against concealed weapons is based on the protection of those persons who may come into contact with a weapon bearer. If a weapon is not concealed, one may take notice of the weapon and its owner and govern oneself accordingly, but no such opportunity for cautious behavior or self-preservation exists for one encountering the bearer of a concealed weapon. In light of this policy, the question whether a particular weapon was concealed should be considered from the point of view of one approaching the location of the weapon, and the intent of the defendant as to concealment should not be considered, since a defendant's innocent intent does not make a concealed weapon any more visible." People v. Mitchell, 209 Cal. App. 4th 1364 - Cal: Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate Dist., 1st Div. (2012) at 1371.

    Only someone like Bob Owens and his kind would say that a handgun carried in one's back pocket or tucked in the small of one's back is an example of "Open Carry." If one's would be opponent cannot see the weapon then the weapon is concealed regardless of whether or not people standing behind the bearer of the weapon can see it.

    Lost on the proponents of concealed carry who claim that there is a Second Amendment right to carry a weapon concealed for the purpose of self-defense is that it was well established that the use of a concealed weapon to kill one's opponent was in virtually every case murder when the Second Amendment was enacted. For example, see Mason's Case (1756) Foster 132 cited in A Treatise on The Pleas of the Crown, Volume 1, Hawkins 1803, pgs 239-241 in which the concealment of a sword beneath the defendant's coat and a failure to give his opponent (his brother) an opportunity to retreat (he advanced on his brother as fast as he retreated) or defend himself from the sword once it was drawn was clear proof of willful murder. The defendant and his brother were armed with cudgels (short fighting sticks) with which they had earlier been fighting. One brother left and returned with a sword concealed beneath his coat, he feigned to resume the fight with his cudgel then dropped it and drew his hidden sword and killed his brother.

    This was not an outlier. If one was engaged in an otherwise fair fight, even if one did not start the fight, and he produced a weapon either concealed on his person or concealed about him and used it to kill his opponent then he had committed murder whereas an otherwise fair fight in which the arms were openly carried which resulted in the death of one's opponent was, at worst, manslaughter (which was pardonable assuming a jury would even convict).

    Shortly after the Second Amendment was enacted the mere carriage of a weapon concealed became a crime because then, as now, the world was full of people eager to use their "tactical/secret" advantage (a concealed weapon) upon others.

    As proof, one need look no further than the comments made by the concealed carry proponents here -> http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05...d-gun-arizona/

    I sympathize with Richard Nascak of Florida Carry, Inc., (who is no fan of mine) in his unsuccessful attempts to reason with these folks but how does one reason with someone who brags about his own cowardice as if it were a virtue?
    Long winded, but a great read!

  22. #22
    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    218
    I once noticed a fella with a revolver in one of the back pockets of his shorts without a holster and I didn't think it was a very smart method of carrying. Based on the looks he was getting from other patrons at that particular gun store, I'm inclined to believe that others agreed with me as well. Or maybe they didn't like his shorts sagging down to his knees?

  23. #23
    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    495
    Yet another example to prove that Dumba-- Carry is the exception, not the rule, to the totally false open carry myth.

    I've updated my fairly comprehensive list of incidents with this.
    Nevada Carry and Frontier Carry

    Helpful guide to gun laws in the Intermountain West

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •