Philadelphia OCer stopped by police - story & video

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...ly-Cops-Mount-Airy-James-Moody-378008741.html

"If you see an armed jogger in Mount Airy, Pennsylvania, these days, it's not a "run-by" in progress.

He's trying to make a point.

James Moody, 49, who lives in the neighborhood and comes from a self-described "firearms family," said he began jogging with a handgun at his hip a couple months ago.

He admits a jogger with a gun in plain view on Vernon Road may be a bit "eye-opening," but Moody, a truck driver and city native who became Pennsylvania's Golden Gloves superheavyweight boxing champion in 1988, said he's doing it to raise awareness about gun rights.

One police officer walking the beat in the 14th District thought it jarring enough to stop Moody mid-run Monday — and the first 15 minutes of the encounter were caught on video shot by Moody's Go-Pro. ..."


It would seem like one has to produce a permit/license, since OC in Philly is legal only with a permit/license, correct?

Need RAS or PC to hassle a person like this, yes? 4th amendment an all...

i am 'fraid if i were moody, i believe a request to the chief & sheriff to have the entire nice local LE department trained on this subject is in order.

bloody attorney mentioned in the article should be reeducated also...

ipse

solus said:

i am 'fraid if i were moody, i believe a request to the chief & sheriff to have the entire nice local LE department trained on this subject is in order.

bloody attorney mentioned in the article should be reeducated also...

Click to expand...

There are a couple of stickied threads in the PA forum. I don't know the specifics, but they may be instructive.

I'm headed to bed, so maybe tomorrow I'll do more research.

solus said:

i am 'fraid if i were moody, i believe a request to the chief & sheriff to have the entire nice local LE department trained on this subject is in order.

bloody attorney mentioned in the article should be reeducated also...

ipse

Click to expand...

I recently re-read a prior affidavit in a civil case of mine back in 2012 ... from a 12 yr state trooper vet who actually attested to these facts:

1) I refused to be subjected to a metal detector screening
2) The agency was not requiring any type of searches upon me (or anyone else) to gain entry into the bldg
3) that my refusal to go through a metal detector required them to deny me access to the bldg. and my continual questioning if a search is required (always answered in the negative) and my continual refusal to go through the detector made them angry.

They don't even know what constitutes a search! LOL

I entered the bldg. where they had a regular metal detector in the lobby ... I asked if a search was required to enter further and was told no (several iterations of this ~ just to make sure it was not an anomaly) ... so I entered the bldg. further bypassing the metal detector. I'd get called back to the "security area" and went through this process like 5 times until they tossed me out. I was nice as pie ... they went crazy. I did not explain that a metal detector was a search under the 4th amendment....its not my job to teach them. I did tell them that I would refuse any search to gain access to the public bldg. "Oh, we don't require a search" and other similar statements were always provided to me from the 12yr trooper and other various state troopers.

Really, everyone is required to know every law ... gov't officials are not exempt from this. So I am not a big "give them more training" kinda guy.

In this specific instance it was a state trooper with 12 yrs on the job. And the trooper did not know (and all the trooper's fellow troopers - about 10 in all - I created quite a buzz that day) had no idea what a search is or can be defined by the 4th amendment.

I train them in court. And I charge a high price for such training.

Mr. Moody never did ask them "What RAS do you have that I don't have a LTC card?" If they don't know him how can they reasonable suspect that he doesn't have a LTC permit. Supreme Court has told us that the exercise of a right can not be construed to be a violation of law or suspicion of the same. They can't specify what law Mr Moody is suspected of violating, is violating, or about to violate! I see in this video where he has been seized without just cause. And then after the video ends he is handcuffed, ID forceably taken without his consent. Then when they see his LTC with his ID he is suddenly free to go!

JoeSparky said:

Mr. Moody never did ask them "What RAS do you have that I don't have a LTC card?" If they don't know him how can they reasonable suspect that he doesn't have a LTC permit. Supreme Court has told us that the exercise of a right can not be construed to be a violation of law or suspicion of the same. They can't specify what law Mr Moody is suspected of violating, is violating, or about to violate! I see in this video where he has been seized without just cause. And then after the video ends he is handcuffed, ID forceably taken without his consent. Then when they see his LTC with his ID he is suddenly free to go!

Click to expand...

Jesus came down and told them to let him go...had nothing to do with them realizing that they just violated his 4th amendment rights ... he won't pursue it most likely....

BB62 said:

It would seem like one has to produce a permit/license, since OC in Philly is legal only with a permit/license, correct?

Click to expand...

Technically, (and I've heard of courts completely ignoring the theory) it might depend on how the law is written. It could be either ....
1) "... it is illegal to carry a firearm ...." and then carving out exceptions for licenses, police, etc. etc.
or
2) "... shall not carry without a license..."

With 1) you have RAS of an illegal act upon knowledge of a carried firearm but 2) requires RAS that the firearm carrier is unlicensed.


Most states I've bothered to check, driving licenses are written in the style of 2) rather than 1).

Since the PA forum here is not very lively, I did some searching and came across this:

Open Carry in Pennsylvania

While Pennsylvania has a specific law that requires a License To Carry Firearms for the concealed carry of a firearm, and the carry of firearms in vehicles, the law is silent on the legality of openly carrying a firearm in other situations, making it de-facto legal.

There is however a law that requires a License To Carry Firearms to carry either way in "cities of the first class", which as defined by law is only the city of Philadelphia. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108: Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia

• No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
  • (1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
  • (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

To summarize, open carry is legal in Pennsylvania without a License To Carry Firearms except in "cities of the first class" (Philadelphia) and vehicles where a License To Carry Firearms is required to do so.​

With that said, we would like to point out that there is much debate among firearm owners about whether openly carrying firearms is really a good idea. While we will leave that choice to the individual we will state that in many urban areas (namely Philadelphia) doing so will draw unwanted attention from law enforcement that may include (but not be limited to) the following repercussions:

1. Being stopped and questioned by law enforcement.
2. Having your License To Carry Firearms seized and sent back for revocation.
3. Being arrested either improperly or for other charges like disturbing the peace or creating a public nuisance.

While this may not happen should you choose to carry openly, many urban law enforcement officers we have talked to have expressed a very negative opinion towards the idea. Some have suggested that law enforcement will do everything in their power to make your life difficult should you choose to.


http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-firearms/open-carry/

After I started a new thread at the above site, a member pointed out that there is a long-running discussion there:

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=302884

BB62 said:

--snipped--
It would seem like one has to produce a permit/license, since OC in Philly is legal only with a permit/license, correct?

Click to expand...

In, cities of the first class (Philly is the only one) one must have a permit/license to OC.

Applicable for the entire state if in a vehicle.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license

• (a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6108: Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in PhiladelphiaTo summarize, open carry is legal in Pennsylvania without a License To Carry Firearms except in "cities of the first class" (Philadelphia) and vehicles where a License To Carry Firearms is required to do so.

http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-firearms/concealed-carry/

BB62 said:

...It would seem like one has to produce a permit/license, since OC in Philly is legal only with a permit/license, correct?

Click to expand...

An affirmative response, as posted here on OCDO by others, and as posted on the PAFOA forum by an attorney (handle GunLawyer001):

You don't have to immediately produce your LTCF to Philly cops when OC'ing, but they are then entitled to arrest you for possessing a firearm on the streets of Philadelphia.

Licensing is an exception to the ban; the burden is on you to prove the exception. The license is proof. Show the proof, or they can take you in and you can experience the charm of a Philly cell.

Click to expand...

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=302884&page=10&p=3304460#post3304460