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Thread: FedGov SSA moves to block the mentally ill from purchasing guns w/o adjudication

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    FedGov SSA moves to block the mentally ill from purchasing guns w/o adjudication

    “It appears that just like the VA, SSA’s regulatory action will not require the government to first prove that the individual is a danger to self or others,” Grassley wrote last July in a letter to Carolyn Colvin, acting commissioner of the Social Security Administration.

    “Is the SSA using the VA’s regulatory standard as a template for reporting names to the [FBI]?” he asked. “If not, in what ways is the SSA’s regulatory scheme different from the VA’s?”

    http://thehill.com/regulation/pendin...urchasing-guns

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2016-10424.pdf 33 pages

    This document is scheduled to be published in the
    Federal Register on 05/05/2016 and available online at http://federalregister.gov/a/2016-10424, and on FDsys.gov
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-05-2016 at 12:24 PM.
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    Are these citizens also being stripped of other Constitutionally protected rights?

    yeah, didn't think so....

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyMtnScotsman View Post
    Are these citizens also being stripped of other Constitutionally protected rights?

    yeah, didn't think so....
    wow, you asked and answered your own question in the same post...quite impressive actually.

    and you asked your question even if you knew the answer... because?

    ipse
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    I feel safer from crazy old people already .... disarm them all HAHAHAHA


    That's the plan Stan.

    I'm feeling old ... cleaning my guns right now....

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    “It appears that just like the VA, SSA’s regulatory action will not require the government to first prove that the individual is a danger to self or others,” Grassley wrote last July in a letter to Carolyn Colvin, acting commissioner of the Social Security Administration.

    “Is the SSA using the VA’s regulatory standard as a template for reporting names to the [FBI]?” he asked. “If not, in what ways is the SSA’s regulatory scheme different from the VA’s?”

    http://thehill.com/regulation/pendin...urchasing-guns

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2016-10424.pdf 33 pages

    This document is scheduled to be published in the
    Federal Register on 05/05/2016 and available online at http://federalregister.gov/a/2016-10424, and on FDsys.gov
    Thanks for putting this up.

    I have been working on my comment to this proposed rule and am seeking some information I am unable to find.

    Notwithstanding the DOJ involvement in circumventing public law, it is my assertion the commissioner of the SSA does not have the "lawful authority" that is claimed in the proposed rule.

    What I am trying to understand is how the SSA has access to "relevant records" identifying these people.

    When a person applies for SS benefits do you supply the information or do you give them permission to look at your medical history?

    ~Whitney

    (attached file, work in progress)
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    I do not recall applying for SS benefits, indeed I would not have for the penalty to my CSRA benefits.

    I worked through my career to not contribute to SSA and retired without eligibility. Unfortunately I forgot my animus when I worked for a friend for a couple of years long after retirement and mistakenly qualified for SS benefits.

    My SS benefits quite match my Medicare premium - so far. My CSRA is a great investment that has returned more than twenty times my contribution.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    Thanks for putting this up.

    I have been working on my comment to this proposed rule and am seeking some information I am unable to find.

    Notwithstanding the DOJ involvement in circumventing public law, it is my assertion the commissioner of the SSA does not have the "lawful authority" that is claimed in the proposed rule.

    What I am trying to understand is how the SSA has access to "relevant records" identifying these people.

    When a person applies for SS benefits do you supply the information or do you give them permission to look at your medical history?

    ~Whitney

    (attached file, work in progress)
    Speaking from experience, the answer is Both. When applying for "benefits", you sign a release of information and you provide information directly which the SSA verifies. Additionally, the SSA performs periodic "reviews" of one's disability status by reviewing medical records (which one is required to provide both direct info and sign a release). I originally was denied, I think 3 times? I then had to go to federal court before a judge with my lawyer, and multiple doctors. I originally started receiving "benefits" due to my diagnosis of bipolar 1 disorder. Since then, I also have been hit with physical disability. I recently (within the last month) had to do an "eligibility" review.

    I know that some on these forums will say that neither I nor anyone else should be receiving "benefits" which is paid for by the tax payers. I will say this in response. I don't want to receive social security "benefits". I would much rather be working and earning my own way. I suffer from disability through no fault of my own. I suffer from genetic? defects that are the cause of my medical issues. At the age of 38, I now suffer from full body osteoarthritis. This osteoarthritis is most prominent in my spine. As of May 9, 2016, I will be going in for surgery for artificial disk replacement in my cervical spine (my neck) due to osteoarthritis being the direct cause of herniated disks which have both compressed the nerve roots at my C-5/6 and 6/7 vertebrae, and caused cervical stenosis (compression of the spinal cord). As a result, I now have permanent nerve damage. I have been dealing with this since 2012 as of the original diagnosis (so 4 years). I also suffer, as a result of osteoarthritis, constant pain in all of my major joints from my shoulders all the way to my ankles.

    I worked all of my life and took care of myself till my disabilities took effect. I can no longer do the work that I originally trained for. Now, I am a full time college student, working on my 2nd 2 year degree as a paralegal so that I can find employment in a different field that would at least allow me to do something productive with my life. I can honestly say that if I wasn't receiving social security benefits, my life would be totally different then it is today. There is even a chance that I would not be alive today. However, I DO NOT believe that I should give up any of my protected rights in order to receive these benefits.
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    Do freemen who are considered "mentally ill" (whatever that means) still have their RKBA?

    That's the question to answer.

    That answer is yes.

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    What rights do citizen freemen not have?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    wow, you asked and answered your own question in the same post...quite impressive actually.

    and you asked your question even if you knew the answer... because?
    It is a rhetorical device that sometimes makes reading more interesting that simply stating something directly. It is not uncommon here. I see nothing offensive in the post.

    Was there something about his post that rubbed you the wrong way such that you felt the need to respond in such a snarky manner?

    Don't you think there might be a more polite way to respond to RockyMtnScotsman, if any response was needed?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    “It appears that just like the VA, SSA’s regulatory action will not require the government to first prove that the individual is a danger to self or others,” Grassley wrote last July in a letter to Carolyn Colvin, acting commissioner of the Social Security Administration.
    Out of one side of their mouths, the liberals say they want to remove the stigma of mental illness. Out of the other side they want to remove constitutionally enumerated rights without any finding of someone with mental illness being a danger to themselves or others.

    No points for guessing how severely an employer would be punished by the feds for violating the ADA by declining to hire someone on the grounds that he had a "mental illness". Yet if the mental illness prevents the person from working such that he qualifies for SSDI, the person is likely to lose his RKBA?

    One might hope that the risk of losing RKBA by applying for SSDI under a mental health disability would cause some of the fraudulent applications to SSDI (which seem to have risen significantly the last several years to rethink. Sadly, I expect such fraudsters care little for law about guns, and it will largely be the honest and decent who get wrongly deprived of their RKBA.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    no!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    no!
    Your post doesn't provide any context and is therefore completely cryptic.

    What was your intention?
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 05-06-2016 at 07:41 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    <snip> Out of the other side they want to remove constitutionally enumerated rights without any finding of someone with mental illness being a danger to themselves or others.


    Charles
    I think that the goal of the SSA is to give the power to adjudicate someone as having a mental illness would now rest with a bureaucrat v. a judge.

    Now people are happy happy for a judge to say "I'm taking away your right for this and that reason" and then let the person free w/o any crime being found. Many find this OK...afterall, the judge went to college and got at least a D- average.

    Any freeman has all his rights .. a judge cannot take any rights away unless he removes a person from society and makes the person a non-freeman.

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    SSA Proposed rule change

    If this is a duplicate please remove it but I wanted to make sure people know about this.

    This NPRM will propose to implement provisions of the NIAA that require Federal agencies to provide relevant records to the Attorney General for inclusion in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Under the proposed rule, we would identify, on a prospective basis, individuals who receive Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance benefits under title II of the Social Security Act (Act) or Supplemental Security Income (SSI) payments under title XVI of the Act and also meet certain other criteria, including an award of benefits based on a finding that the individual’s mental impairment meets or medically equals the requirements of section 12.00 of the Listing of Impairments (Listings) and receipt of benefits through a representative payee. We also propose to provide pertinent information about these individuals to the Attorney General on not less than a quarterly basis. As required by the NIAA, at the commencement of the adjudication process we would also notify individuals, both orally and in writing, of their possible inclusion in the NICS, the consequences of such inclusion, the criminal penalties for violating the NICS prohibition, and the availability of relief from the prohibitions imposed by the NICS inclusion. Finally, we also propose to establish a program that permits individuals to request relief from the firearms prohibitions imposed by the NIAA. The proposed rule would allow us to fulfill responsibilities that we have under the NIAA.<br />
    In other words, anyone social-security recipient who appoints another to manage his finances will be flagged for denial in NICS.

    Here is a link to the public comments for the proposed change - Regulations.gov


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    A duplicate of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    “It appears that just like the VA, SSA’s regulatory action will not require the government to first prove that the individual is a danger to self or others,” Grassley wrote last July in a letter to Carolyn Colvin, acting commissioner of the Social Security Administration.

    “Is the SSA using the VA’s regulatory standard as a template for reporting names to the [FBI]?” he asked. “If not, in what ways is the SSA’s regulatory scheme different from the VA’s?”

    http://thehill.com/regulation/pendin...urchasing-guns

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2016-10424.pdf 33 pages

    This document is scheduled to be published in the
    Federal Register on 05/05/2016 and available online at http://federalregister.gov/a/2016-10424, and on FDsys.gov
    A duplicate of this?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    A duplicate of this?
    subtlety is one of your strongest fortes isn't it...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member tletourneau's Avatar
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    Hence the comment about removing if a duplicate...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Trustees of a revokable trust could be flagged as well.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Who gets to decide who is mentally ill?

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    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Who gets to decide who is mentally ill?
    The inmates that are running the asylum.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The inmates that are running the asylum.
    You are mentally ill, now give me all of your guns.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Beware the Psychologization of Dissent

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    You are mentally ill, now give me all of your guns.
    Already been done in the Soviet Union, from whom Obama and his mentors learned well. "There was systematic political abuse of psychiatry in the Soviet Union, based on the interpretation of political opposition or dissent as a psychiatric problem. It was called "psychopathological mechanisms" of dissent."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    What's the possibility of them actually getting this through?

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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    What's the possibility of them actually getting this through?
    It is a rule by an agency. No permission or approval is required, they merely must follow established rule making procedures.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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