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Thread: Anyone from the old MOC crew still out there?

  1. #1
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    Anyone from the old MOC crew still out there?

    Just trying to find our long lost MOC actives. I'm wondering if they are still lurking here just not posting or what? Haven't been here in ages myself.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-27-2016 at 03:24 AM. Reason: remove exclamation mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Just trying to find our long lost MOC actives. I'm wondering if they are still lurking here just not posting or what? Haven't been here in ages myself.
    Yeah, some lurkers are still around and choose to remain silent
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  3. #3
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    I still poke about occasionally... stir the pot and wander away lol.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The majority of the devoted old guard founders of moc left the organization in disgust after either being kicked out of/pushed away from leadership positions for erroneous reasons or otherwise seeing their efforts turn into something unintended. Or in my case I was kicked out for ocing, at least that's their claim.

    The moc forum, originally started as a means to moderate when Mike and John were the only moderators later after that was resolved along with Facebook became a way to ensure this forum is basically dead, with no real reason for the old guard or anyone else to post much.
    Last edited by Michigander; 05-22-2016 at 11:04 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Just trying to find our long lost MOC actives. I'm wondering if they are still lurking here just not posting or what? Haven't been here in ages myself.
    I was not,,, but I did follow all the goings on in Michigan. It was a hot bed of stuff back in the day.
    Lil freek, Stainless1911, cvs67pat kept the place jumping.
    talk about the michigan pistol was fun till they changed the length law.
    and then their was the UFO,,, I signed up,,, I think their was 2 of us.
    I visit MOC , rarerly just to see whats up,,, not much,,, even the ammo dump is boring now..

    ETA,,,,, I remember the video you posted,, You OCing into a cop shop,,,
    They all came out to Eject you for breaking the Law,,,!!!
    You facing them down!!! Quietly, calmly, confidently, explaining the Truth!!!
    I was astounded, I was Shocked, I couldnt have been more proud!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    I still poke about occasionally... stir the pot and wander away lol.
    I miss your posts,, I thought you were a mover and a shaker,, but
    I guess, in the end you were just a guy that got faced and gun pointed for OCing!
    yes I read you and I remember....

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The majority of the devoted old guard founders of moc left the organization in disgust after either being kicked out of/pushed away from leadership positions for erroneous reasons or otherwise seeing their efforts turn into something unintended. Or in my case I was kicked out for ocing, at least that's their claim.

    The moc forum, originally started as a means to moderate when Mike and John were the only moderators later after that was resolved along with Facebook became a way to ensure this forum is basically dead, with no real reason for the old guard or anyone else to post much.
    Do I remember right that you are the guy that had a dilemma with a CZ-52?
    I think mine is super, but I wAS BORN IN 1952 ,, soo,, always with the safety on!

    But Really??? Kicked out of Michigan Open Carry,,, for Open Carry???


    In the end it seems that State gun rights groups spread, and dissolve them selves,,,
    as they strive to somehow include a larger segment of a smaller demographic,,,
    It just doesnt work
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 05-23-2016 at 12:05 PM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Do I remember right that you are the guy that had a dilemma with a CZ-52?
    I think mine is super, but I wAS BORN IN 1952 ,, soo,, always with the safety on!

    But Really??? Kicked out of Michigan Open Carry,,, for Open Carry???


    In the end it seems that State gun rights groups spread, and dissolve them selves,,,
    as they strive to somehow include a larger segment of a smaller demographic,,,
    It just doesnt work
    cz52, yes, hammer down, safety on, fell on the ground, shot me through the tibia. 8 years later I can finally run normally again. The cheap commie sears and lack of a firing pin block make them utterly untrustworthy. Safety on or off, do not trust them. I made the idiotic mistake of trusting the california drop safety testing system. I had mine destroyed and would do so again without hesitation.

    Yes, kicked out of MOC for open carry. By a board decision no less.

    After watching what happened here, then talking to people around the country who are involved in similar efforts, I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in managing any gun rights groups and and any other pro freedom group ends up being understanding the vast importance of collectivism vs individualism, preventing narcissistic sociopaths from becoming leaders, and much of that has to do with preventing democracy from having any say in who becomes a leader. The founders first need to be very well aware of these things and then either need to keep direct control of the organization, or maintain control of appointing and firing leaders as needed based on sound reasoning, always stepping in before things go south. Some variation of this is what we see in the most successful states efforts, such as Arizona's, and this is working very well for my current organization.
    Last edited by Michigander; 05-23-2016 at 12:00 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    cz52, yes, hammer down, safety on, fell on the ground, shot me through the tibia. 8 years later I can finally run normally again. The cheap commie sears and lack of a firing pin block make them utterly untrustworthy. Safety on or off, do not trust them. I made the idiotic mistake of trusting the california drop safety testing system. I had mine destroyed and would do so again without hesitation.

    Yes, kicked out of MOC for open carry. By a board decision no less.
    My CZ-562 may be more modern than yours,, with a firering pin block,, so thats a thing...
    I see more of CZ-52 now,, never knew the peculiarities or the particulars of the Thing that happened...
    to you.
    mine is not an oc gun.. I study mine more now,, I see it is no safer than a cocked and locked 1911,,,
    but that seems to be the standard,,, of Safety..
    I dont see any more safety in either gun...
    Drop a gun in a bathroom,,, shilt may not come out as planned....

    enuf of he off topic,,, It is nice to talk at you again after all these years....
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I mean a frame mounted firing pin block deactivated by the trigger. Such as on my Sig, or a series 80 1911, and definitely not the 52's. For obvious reasons, I would no longer even endorse carrying a gun without such a safety, and I would not even consider shooting a gun such as a traditional SAA, Tokarev, CZ52 or other such gun without a lanyard.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Well you shouldn't let this stop any of you. I feel the same way and MOC has chased off many of their most strongest supporters including more then 1 founding member. I would like to be involved more in gun rights like how we did prior to the new MOC. Michigander you know what I'm talking about. I think there are enough of us to put something together. All of you pm me and I'll give you my email. With MOC I learned you cant help people who are not willing to change or accept help. Unfortunately every time I reached out to MOC I got my hand slapped. That doesnt mean that we cant be active in gun rights. I've been wanting to get more involved for some time but just couldnt find enough interest of others to join me. Thoughts?



    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The majority of the devoted old guard founders of moc left the organization in disgust after either being kicked out of/pushed away from leadership positions for erroneous reasons or otherwise seeing their efforts turn into something unintended. Or in my case I was kicked out for ocing, at least that's their claim.

    The moc forum, originally started as a means to moderate when Mike and John were the only moderators later after that was resolved along with Facebook became a way to ensure this forum is basically dead, with no real reason for the old guard or anyone else to post much.
    Last edited by mikestilly; 05-24-2016 at 12:41 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The current organization I help run, Liberty Is For Everyone, focuses on police accountability when they step outside of their own rules, often but not always open carry related, as well as assisting victims of these things and throwing protests, as well as spreading the message of non aggression. It has seen the participation of more founding and very early members than I believe are actually left in MOC, and oddly, apart from the broader message of non aggression is perfectly what we had all planned on in the winter of 2009, in spite of the current and more recent former MOC leaders mocking, slandering and banning people over our efforts. Something else we have managed to do is win Detroiters over in a way MOC never attempted to by consistently supporting the local victims of the DPD and very publicly standing up to the NRA's puppet joke of a chief and his renegade felon cops.

    Between these things, and the various further things going on on facebook, certainly there is interest and involvement coming from many directions. As I recall however, when I invited you a year or so ago to work with us if you wanted, you didn't agree with the non aggression principle and didn't want to be involved, which certainly is fine.

    You may recall, the UFO name was something I came up with, and you ran with it. So, in the spirit of me offering you another tidbit of advice before you run with a new effort, and in light of the fact I now know a lot more about how these groups work than I did back then, I would suggest that if you want to be successful with a new organization, first read the last chapter of the new edition of my book, then do your own added research to see how much you agree with my assessment, then get after it, preferably with a new perspective than isn't saturated all over the place. Certainly if there is any overlapping interest there is a distinct possibility of our participants working with you and yours, but that all depends of course.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  11. #11
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    wow, just wow...egos rein supreme in the wolverine state...accountability seems to be some mythical beings...

    by the way mikesilly...i might be misreading, just might, but it appears Michigander doesn't want to play on the same playground w/you now or anytime in the future...

    ipse
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    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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  12. #12
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    wow, just wow...egos rein supreme in the wolverine state...accountability seems to be some mythical beings...

    by the way mikesilly...i might be misreading, just might, but it appears Michigander doesn't want to play on the same playground w/you now or anytime in the future...

    ipse
    I'm nobody special and I've made countless mistakes and I am sure I'm not nearly done yet, but one that I stopped making years ago, after learning the hard way multiple times, is sugar coating the truth and playing politics. Blunt honesty is a very effective filter for your life.

    I do believe you are misreading. I wish Mike very well with whatever he does. As I said, collaboration is possible, depending on the goals involved. If it isn't possible, as always, for anyone, I will offer people advice when asked, even if their goals differ from mine, which certainly is why I responded to Mike's "thoughts?" inquiry. Also note that when I went back over my last post I can see how it could seem bitchy, but please understand it was not intended this way, only to convey the information presented. The history of early open carry and this forum is twisted and complicated, and any discussion of it will likely have some harsh aspects, but again, I emphasize I wish Mike well.
    Last edited by Michigander; 05-25-2016 at 12:02 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The current organization I help run, Liberty Is For Everyone, focuses on police accountability when they step outside of their own rules, often but not always open carry related, as well as assisting victims of these things and throwing protests, as well as spreading the message of non aggression. It has seen the participation of more founding and very early members than I believe are actually left in MOC, and oddly, apart from the broader message of non aggression is perfectly what we had all planned on in the winter of 2009, in spite of the current and more recent former MOC leaders mocking, slandering and banning people over our efforts. Something else we have managed to do is win Detroiters over in a way MOC never attempted to by consistently supporting the local victims of the DPD and very publicly standing up to the NRA's puppet joke of a chief and his renegade felon cops.

    Between these things, and the various further things going on on facebook, certainly there is interest and involvement coming from many directions. As I recall however, when I invited you a year or so ago to work with us if you wanted, you didn't agree with the non aggression principle and didn't want to be involved, which certainly is fine.

    You may recall, the UFO name was something I came up with, and you ran with it. So, in the spirit of me offering you another tidbit of advice before you run with a new effort, and in light of the fact I now know a lot more about how these groups work than I did back then, I would suggest that if you want to be successful with a new organization, first read the last chapter of the new edition of my book, then do your own added research to see how much you agree with my assessment, then get after it, preferably with a new perspective than isn't saturated all over the place. Certainly if there is any overlapping interest there is a distinct possibility of our participants working with you and yours, but that all depends of course.
    As I've always done I wish you well on your endeavors. We have differing views things but that doesn't mean that we don't have areas that intersect, we have many. In reality there are a lot of intersections and I don't feel we have any disagreements on gun rights. I'm not here to challenge anyone on their political beliefs but simply to try and find like minded individuals in which we would work together for a common cause (gun rights). Where can I obtain your book? I'd enjoy reading it.

    I'm interested in your group and would like to learn more about it. I remember my main concern at the time was that it was to narrowly focused and seemed to broadly brush most law enforcement. Don't get me wrong there are bad LE just as their are very good LE but as a whole I support all honorable police officers. Don't get me wrong in that there are some bad actors out there but I'm not interested in police bashing and painting them with a broad brush because of a small few bad actors. I believe in the constitutional republic and am a constitutional conservative. If they fit the goal of preserving our constitutional republic and upholding the constitution as the law of our land and the bill of rights as the protector of them from the federal government I'm all for it.
    Last edited by mikestilly; 05-25-2016 at 07:51 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    We have a very broad spectrum of beliefs in our organization, and everyone involved speaks only for themselves. Some are constitutionalists and some are anarchists, some dislike all cops, some only dislike crooked cops, and every turn out will differ. Not likely something you'll consistently enjoy.

    The book hasn't changed a ton since you last read it, only legal updates and updating for revised tactics and such, the biggest change is the epilogue, though it needs updating now too in light of mcrgo going after open carry again. But otherwise if you read it and see something your experience makes you disagree with please let me know because I want the best info possible in it.http://freedomisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    Interestingly in keeping tabs on Texas for years now, their efforts have done nothing I can see but verify the information.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    I had no idea there was such turmoil in the Wolverine State!

  16. #16
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I had no idea there was such turmoil in the Wolverine State!
    I've noticed in passing on Facebook that Ohio open carry seems to have its **** together pretty well. I can only imagine the people running it are level headed and aware of all of the things I wish I'd known 7 years ago.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I've noticed in passing on Facebook that Ohio open carry seems to have its **** together pretty well. I can only imagine the people running it are level headed and aware of all of the things I wish I'd known 7 years ago.
    There is an Ohio Carry FB group and an Ohio Open Carry FB group. Without injecting my opinion on your opinion, I think you're referring to Ohio Carry.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Double checked and definitely Ohio open carry I have been intermittently looking at. I am sure the situation is much more complicated than I am aware of, but in judging the metaphoric book by it's cover and first few pages, it would seem they are much better arranged than one of my crowning failures in life, MOC, which indicates to me they have solid skilled and knowledgeable leadership locked in tight.

    I am certainly very interested in your doubtlessly much better versed opinion on the Ohio situation, because again I am always seeking to study parallel efforts to better educate others about how not to make the same mistakes I have and others have. I actually want to turn that epilogue into my 3rd book, and will likely do so soon.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Double checked and definitely Ohio open carry I have been intermittently looking at. ...
    Yes, the group does post a number of good things. I'm a member of the group.

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