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Thread: Man accused of shooting cops dealt with mental health issues

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    Man accused of shooting cops dealt with mental health issues

    Ian MacPherson Pleads guilty for shooting 2 cops had agreed to mental health counseling in 2012 after he was charged in an assault his father said was a "schizophrenic", court records show. Ok. The system knew that he was a psycho. It was documented. A police affidavit released Monday says he went through a background check before purchasing the gun he allegedly used to shoot the two officers.

    Hello. Am I missing something here? Court records his mental illness did it not get recorded in the system that he can't buy a gun? So much for gun control arguments. Even if he did get logged into the system, he could have bought a large weapon at the local store and used it to commit a crime. But he was on record. No follow up to see how his treatment was progressing? Aah this is sick! More fodder for gun control wackos!

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/05/17...?intcmp=hplnws
    Last edited by Law abider; 05-17-2016 at 01:06 PM.

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    Was he a freeman ?

    You want everyone who is given some type of mental health treatment to be stripped of their RKBA ?

    You one of those who thinks that a felon losses his gun rights too? Then they'll make anything a felony.

    Same with mental health ... everyone has a mental health defect. The lizards already think this of gun owners.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-17-2016 at 01:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Was he a freeman ?

    You want everyone who is given some type of mental health treatment to be stripped of their RKBA ?

    You one of those who thinks that a felon losses his gun rights too? Then they'll make anything a felony.

    Same with mental health ... everyone has a mental health defect. The lizards already think this of gun owners.
    None of the above. The person clearly showed serious schizophrenic disorder. That disorder makes a person unstable. I am sure the entire population suffers from some disorder or another but that's not a reason to take away their 2A. However the system desires so. Are you on Zoloft or prozac etc..., sorry you can't buy a gun etc... Got my point? I am sure cops suffer from depression and they carry. Everyone has a phobia, the source of which is beyond the scope of this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    None of the above. The person clearly showed serious schizophrenic disorder. That disorder makes a person unstable. I am sure the entire population suffers from some disorder or another but that's not a reason to take away their 2A. However the system desires so. Are you on Zoloft or prozac etc..., sorry you can't buy a gun etc... Got my point? I am sure cops suffer from depression and they carry. Everyone has a phobia, the source of which is beyond the scope of this forum.
    Ok, so you have completely mixed things around making contradictory statements...

    unstable is quite subjective in describing symptoms of 'that disorder'.

    so if someone has been appropriately diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenic disorder, manifested by breakdowns in the individual's grasp of reality beginning mid/late adolescence, they are put on appropriate psychotropic medications which grounds them to back to reality so they can function in society as long as they maintain their daily medication regiment. When they stop the meds, the individual again loses grasp of reality and has the opportunity to become violent. This is where the caregiver(s) assure their charge take their meds as required.

    your second statement of the entire population suffering 'from some disorder or another' are you talking about appropriately diagnosed or those self diagnosed like this, 'you know barney, i believe i am suffering from that there psycho disorder i read about on the bleeping heart internet page...yepper i got all them there symptoms, all of them i tell ya!!'

    now those appropriately diagnosed by trained MH professionals with mental health disorders which cause breaks in the individual's reality should have their ability to be around firearms curtailed.

    those that self diagnose they are flat out idiot savants in and of themselves and your call if you wish to remove them from being around firearms.

    oh and phobias are not in and off themselves mental health disorders.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-18-2016 at 12:07 PM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Ok, so you have completely mixed things around making contradictory statements...

    unstable is quite subjective in describing symptoms of 'that disorder'.

    so if someone has been appropriately diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenic disorder, manifested by breakdowns in the individual's grasp of reality beginning mid/late adolescence, they are put on appropriate psychotropic medications which grounds them to back to reality so they can function in society as long as they maintain their daily medication regiment. When they stop the meds, the individual again loses grasp of reality and has the opportunity to become violent. This is where the caregiver(s) assure their charge take their meds as required.

    your second statement of the entire population suffering 'from some disorder or another' are you talking about appropriately diagnosed or those self diagnosed like this, 'you know barney, i believe i am suffering from that there psycho disorder i read about on the bleeping heart internet page...yepper i got all them there symptoms, all of them i tell ya!!'

    now those appropriately diagnosed by trained MH professionals with mental health disorders which cause breaks in the individual's reality should have their ability to be around firearms curtailed.

    those that self diagnose they are flat out idiot savants in and of themselves and your call if you wish to remove them from being around firearms.

    oh and phobias are not in and off themselves mental health disorders.

    ipse
    Yes. Serious mental disorders as stated in news article (one example) that cause Jekyll/Hyde symptoms are a good cause not to allow the person to own guns. Another would be bipolar disorders. That is a serious one. I personally know of a friend who has one. He takes his meds. remember some people stop taking meds for whatever reason. There are other disorders like depression/s OCD etc... I don't consider them dangerous to others but too self. Now they might use a gun to kill them selves. Yes meds fix the problem but what if they quit taking meds. Yes everyone has phobias: of heights, elevators, of loosing their family members in a large crowd causing fears. Others have unreasonable fears of whatever their brain thinks of. Others have phobia of water; they feel the drowning effect. the list could go on. Of course they vary in degrees from person to person. Another side: I told my sheriff, every one has a dark side that is hidden, under control... so far. That includes cops, deputies, the president, military generals etc... And the reason is.... beyond the scope of this forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Yes. Serious mental disorders as stated in news article (one example) that cause Jekyll/Hyde symptoms are a good cause not to allow the person to own guns. Another would be bipolar disorders. That is a serious one. I personally know of a friend who has one. He takes his meds. remember some people stop taking meds for whatever reason. There are other disorders like depression/s OCD etc... I don't consider them dangerous to others but too self. Now they might use a gun to kill them selves. Yes meds fix the problem but what if they quit taking meds. Yes everyone has phobias: of heights, elevators, of loosing their family members in a large crowd causing fears. Others have unreasonable fears of whatever their brain thinks of. Others have phobia of water; they feel the drowning effect. the list could go on. Of course they vary in degrees from person to person. Another side: I told my sheriff, every one has a dark side that is hidden, under control... so far. That includes cops, deputies, the president, military generals etc... And the reason is.... beyond the scope of this forum
    Should we give car keys to a habitual town drunk?

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Ian MacPherson Pleads guilty for shooting 2 cops had agreed to mental health counseling in 2012 after he was charged in an assault his father said was a "schizophrenic", court records show. Ok. The system knew that he was a psycho. It was documented. A police affidavit released Monday says he went through a background check before purchasing the gun he allegedly used to shoot the two officers.

    Hello. Am I missing something here? Court records his mental illness did it not get recorded in the system that he can't buy a gun? So much for gun control arguments. Even if he did get logged into the system, he could have bought a large weapon at the local store and used it to commit a crime. But he was on record. No follow up to see how his treatment was progressing? Aah this is sick! More fodder for gun control wackos!

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/05/17...?intcmp=hplnws

    Thankfully, we are not quite to the point that a relative or associate can simply point at us a say "He's crazy" to have us hauled off to a rubber room.
    Nothing I saw in the first article says he has been adjudicated as crazy.

    …in 2012 after he was charged in an assault his father said was a "schizophrenic" episode

    Russell MacPherson told police in 2012 that his son had been diagnosed with schizophrenia…

    "He's been suffering mental illness issues for a long, long time," Russell MacPherson said

    You should definitely not be put on a list of people with limited rights until a judge, operating with sufficient medical testimony, bangs a gavel and signs commitment papers. Even that system has many flaws. Giving that system even more power should cause concern to anyone who respects civil liberties.

    We should not let that turn into another Child Protective Services (or many others agencies) where mere suspicion is enough to start the ponderous process of investigation / suspension / permanent removal of your rights.

    I can look up the cites if needed, but I've read that most people with serious mental illness are not violent. It the folks on the fringes, who can operate more or less normally, that are of most concern. The poor sob that's been institutionalized the past 20 years probably can't feed himself much less get ID, fill out forms, provide payment and load/aim/fire a handgun. And those fringe dwellers are mighty hard to pick out. They might look just like me or one of you. Well, probably more like one of you. I'm feeling fine!

    Also - not sure why there's a thumbs down emoticon at the top of my post. Unintended and not representative of my feelings to any previous poster.
    Last edited by Jim675; 05-18-2016 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Grammer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Should we give car keys to a habitual town drunk?
    yes normally because they are prob better drivers than some who are sober as they have done it longer while inebriated.

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim675 View Post
    Thankfully, we are not quite to the point that a relative or associate can simply point at us a say "He's crazy" to have us hauled off to a rubber room.
    Nothing I saw in the first article says he has been adjudicated as crazy. ... We should not let that turn into another Child Protective Services (or many others agencies) where mere suspicion is enough to start the ponderous process of investigation / suspension / permanent removal of your rights. ...
    I disagree.

    No cop is going to not react as a CPS goon based only on a mere accusation. The news article highlights the exact reason why a prudent cop shop will let a judge sort it out. The family is using this very defense/argument that cops did nothing, when they should have, and as such the crazy son needs not to be held liable for his acts...cuz he is crazy.

    Either way, once you are accused of being "crazy" your RKBA will likely forever be revoked.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I disagree.

    No cop is going to not react as a CPS goon based only on a mere accusation. The news article highlights the exact reason why a prudent cop shop will let a judge sort it out. The family is using this very defense/argument that cops did nothing, when they should have, and as such the crazy son needs not to be held liable for his acts...cuz he is crazy.

    Either way, once you are accused of being "crazy" your RKBA will likely forever be revoked.




    yep. I think a lot of folks here are reacting defensively. All you have to do is to look at the last 10 or so mass murders ok the last 3. Jared Lee Loughner, Alan Lonza and james Holmes. What's the common denominator here?
    The danger is that the system will conjure up anything to take our rights away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    [/B]
    yep. I think a lot of folks here are reacting defensively. All you have to do is to look at the last 10 or so mass murders ok the last 3. Jared Lee Loughner, Alan Lonza (sic) and james Holmes. What's the common denominator here? The danger is that the system will conjure up anything to take our rights away.
    sorry, but Messrs. loughner, lanza, holmes, roof, flanagan, and stancil have documented history of either being diagnosed as having mental health issues or behavioural problems ignored by caregivers and authorities.

    in the holmes case, his MH practitioner failed to notify.

    in the lanza case, quote: Connecticut's Office of the Child Advocate released a report today detailing the mental health profile of gunman Adam Lanza, noting potential missed opportunities. " [Lanza] was presented with significant developmental challenges from earliest childhood, including communication and sensory difficulties, socialization delays, and repetitive behaviors," tunquote (http://abcnews.go.com/US/disturbing-...ry?id=27087140)

    quote: Interviews with Loughner's parents revealed they were deeply concerned about their son's increasingly angry and erratic behavior. His mother, Amy Loughner, said he no longer used alcohol and had tested negative for drugs. "My concern was like, meth or something ... because his behavior and his, was, um, odd," she said in one of the interviews. Randy Loughner said he was so concerned, he took away Jared's shotgun and often disabled Jared's car at night to prevent him from leaving the house.

    The papers also reveal Loughner did not seek mental health treatment. When he was expelled from college, his parents were urged to have him evaluated, but they never followed up. unquote http://www.cbsnews.com/news/newly-re...lling-details/

    roof, 21 years old, you will soon be told is schizophrenic. this disorder manifests itself between ages 16 and 30. additionally, you will hear the caregivers were unable ~ blah blah blah!!

    to quote the closing of a great TV show: "There are eight million stories in the naked city. This has been one of them."

    your hyperbole you are spewing to members quote: The danger is that the system will conjure up anything to take our rights away unquote using these cases is nothing but grandstanding fear maundering nonsense.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-19-2016 at 11:42 AM. Reason: add comment on lanza
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Reporting ...

    Let's make this a lot simpler then what all the above have been stating in their responses...

    Not all states report... the last information I read was only 32 out of 50 states are reporting and of the 32 states that are reporting about 10 have only sent in a couple of hundred cases.

    Point 2.... Humans are involved in the reporting process....nuf said on that topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry, but Messrs. loughner, lanza, holmes, roof, flanagan, and stancil have documented history of either being diagnosed as having mental health issues or behavioural problems ignored by caregivers and authorities.

    in the holmes case, his MH practitioner failed to notify.

    in the lanza case, quote: Connecticut's Office of the Child Advocate released a report today detailing the mental health profile of gunman Adam Lanza, noting potential missed opportunities. " [Lanza] was presented with significant developmental challenges from earliest childhood, including communication and sensory difficulties, socialization delays, and repetitive behaviors," tunquote (http://abcnews.go.com/US/disturbing-...ry?id=27087140)

    quote: Interviews with Loughner's parents revealed they were deeply concerned about their son's increasingly angry and erratic behavior. His mother, Amy Loughner, said he no longer used alcohol and had tested negative for drugs. "My concern was like, meth or something ... because his behavior and his, was, um, odd," she said in one of the interviews. Randy Loughner said he was so concerned, he took away Jared's shotgun and often disabled Jared's car at night to prevent him from leaving the house.

    The papers also reveal Loughner did not seek mental health treatment. When he was expelled from college, his parents were urged to have him evaluated, but they never followed up. unquote http://www.cbsnews.com/news/newly-re...lling-details/

    roof, 21 years old, you will soon be told is schizophrenic. this disorder manifests itself between ages 16 and 30. additionally, you will hear the caregivers were unable ~ blah blah blah!!

    to quote the closing of a great TV show: "There are eight million stories in the naked city. This has been one of them."

    your hyperbole you are spewing to members quote: The danger is that the system will conjure up anything to take our rights away unquote using these cases is nothing but grandstanding fear maundering nonsense.

    ipse
    Yep you make my point. So did Mr McPherson, in 2012. His case was too in court records.
    The murderers you mention all had, may be one, schizophrenia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Yep you make my point. So did Mr McPherson, in 2012. His case was too in court records.
    The murderers you mention all had, may be one, schizophrenia.
    no sorry, they ALL did not have that disorder. period.

    and can't even provide cites or at least spell their names properly...

    enjoy your illusions...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Beware the psychologization of dissent, you too may be found to have a paraphilia.
    thank heavens we are not talking about minority behaviour and any messages they are or might be conveying, especially w/the individual's specifically mentioned by Law...

    i am fortunate to never have experiencing any paraphilla over my life time so are you speaking from personal experience(s) as you hot bunked in your early adulthood or in later in life as the magic blue pill whisked you away fantasizing about and engaging in behaviour that is atypical and extreme?

    just saying...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ... Your hoplophilia!
    and my horse is named topper...do you w/to be cast in the role of clyde?


    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Mental illness is a very difficult topic. Between my and my wife's extended families, we have known several people who suffered from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. All suffered tremendously.

    None ever showed any danger to others. But in ways both direct and indirect, they were certainly a danger to themselves. All were brilliant.

    One ultimately ended his life. The medications put him into a stupor. Being off the medications resulted in some kind of deep personal hell.

    One lived his life on the streets. Paranoia of the CIA bugging his residence prevented him from ever living in regular home. He was killed by a train while walking--probably obvious to his surroundings--on the tracks.

    The last one was kept off the streets by shear force of her parents' will. They were able to provide a small home that she could both horde in and clean as excessively as she wanted. Though she had a law degree (and passed the bar on her first attempt, did I mention brilliant) and was a registered nurse, she could never hold down any job other than menial or entry level, and even then, usually only for a short time at a stretch. She mercifully passed of natural causes shortly after her last parent had died and before the money that allowed her to stay in her home ran out.

    So far as I know, none of the three ever had any interest in guns. Should they have had their RKBA infringed if they had wanted a gun? I honestly don't know. As I wrote, I never knew of any of them to exhibit any danger toward others. But they were more certainly suffering from minds that were not working in the rational world.

    Legally, I have to come down on the side of their rights up to the point they are not allowed to walk the streets unsupervised. But maybe at least two of them shouldn't have walking around unsupervised. The latter two may well have benefited from some kind of forced medication to better control their illness. But it would have had to have been forced as one of the first things to get paranoid about when the illness acts up, is medicine.

    And yet forced medication is a larger intrusion into one's rights, I think, than even loss of RKBA. Of the three, one committed suicide because the choice between the illness untreated, and the effects of medication was simply not tenable for him.

    We are also well to remember the sad and dangerous history of mental health being misused to abuse those who dissent from official power. Even among the well-meaning, the chance for abuse is huge. It was the best mental health experts, trained doctors, doing their best to help him heal from what they believed was a serious mental illness who now stand roundly condemned for "torturing" Alex Turing to death once his homosexuality (as opposed to the socially accepted English bi-sexuality) coming to light.

    It is a shame there isn't a legal mechanism by which those with mental illness might choose--in their lucid, well times--to voluntarily commit to some agreed upon treatment when the darkness sets in. As is, we are left with the blunt instrument of either the criminal justice system when someone with mental illness commits a crime, or with some kind of civil commitment proceeding with its lifetime loss of rights as well.

    Would that the college coed with anorexia, or the widower or post-partum mom with depression, or the veteran with PTSD could get professional medical care with as little stigma or risk of losing their rights, as can the diabetic, amputee, or guy with heart disease.

    Charles

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    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...isis/84560528/

    interesting reading and GWBush strikes again.

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Everybody is crazy!

    I have been a logger...my friends called me crazy. Drove a logging truck...my friends called me crazy. Fought wild fires... my friends called me crazy. I have not dug coal in a mine...you've got to be crazy to do that.

    My point is that crazy is only in the eyes of the state...and a mother&father.

    Heck, I spent 20 years in the Navy on fast boats, most of the time up under the ice...my Mom called me crazy, my Dad only said "I'm proud of you Son."

    There are crazy folks, no doubt about it, then there are folks who are crazy like a fox. Like the nut who shot up a movie theater...after he walked past movie theaters that he was not crazy enough to attack.

    YMMV
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Mental illness is a very difficult topic. Between my and my wife's extended families, we have known several people who suffered from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. All suffered tremendously.

    None ever showed any danger to others. But in ways both direct and indirect, they were certainly a danger to themselves. All were brilliant.

    One ultimately ended his life. The medications put him into a stupor. Being off the medications resulted in some kind of deep personal hell.

    One lived his life on the streets. Paranoia of the CIA bugging his residence prevented him from ever living in regular home. He was killed by a train while walking--probably obvious to his surroundings--on the tracks.

    The last one was kept off the streets by shear force of her parents' will. They were able to provide a small home that she could both horde in and clean as excessively as she wanted. Though she had a law degree (and passed the bar on her first attempt, did I mention brilliant) and was a registered nurse, she could never hold down any job other than menial or entry level, and even then, usually only for a short time at a stretch. She mercifully passed of natural causes shortly after her last parent had died and before the money that allowed her to stay in her home ran out.

    So far as I know, none of the three ever had any interest in guns. Should they have had their RKBA infringed if they had wanted a gun? I honestly don't know. As I wrote, I never knew of any of them to exhibit any danger toward others. But they were more certainly suffering from minds that were not working in the rational world.

    Legally, I have to come down on the side of their rights up to the point they are not allowed to walk the streets unsupervised. But maybe at least two of them shouldn't have walking around unsupervised. The latter two may well have benefited from some kind of forced medication to better control their illness. But it would have had to have been forced as one of the first things to get paranoid about when the illness acts up, is medicine.

    And yet forced medication is a larger intrusion into one's rights, I think, than even loss of RKBA. Of the three, one committed suicide because the choice between the illness untreated, and the effects of medication was simply not tenable for him.

    We are also well to remember the sad and dangerous history of mental health being misused to abuse those who dissent from official power. Even among the well-meaning, the chance for abuse is huge. It was the best mental health experts, trained doctors, doing their best to help him heal from what they believed was a serious mental illness who now stand roundly condemned for "torturing" Alex Turing to death once his homosexuality (as opposed to the socially accepted English bi-sexuality) coming to light.

    It is a shame there isn't a legal mechanism by which those with mental illness might choose--in their lucid, well times--to voluntarily commit to some agreed upon treatment when the darkness sets in. As is, we are left with the blunt instrument of either the criminal justice system when someone with mental illness commits a crime, or with some kind of civil commitment proceeding with its lifetime loss of rights as well.

    Would that the college coed with anorexia, or the widower or post-partum mom with depression, or the veteran with PTSD could get professional medical care with as little stigma or risk of losing their rights, as can the diabetic, amputee, or guy with heart disease.

    Charles
    Well said Charles. You have bared your heart and family before us. Yes I have a son who has depression. He too is brilliant. Can build any computer from scratch. Is on meds but when they run out... oh well. I don't let him with play with my guns. Besides he lives away from home. He lacks coping skills. But he too has no interest in guns. There is no gene for depression. yes it is a complicated thing. But many with serious mental illnesses do get hold of them and murder. But the point in the beginning was that McPherson was on record of having schizophrenia agreed treatment and no one knows if he actually did. He should have been denied a legal purchase, God forbid he would buy a stolen gun.

  21. #21
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    snipp...

    But the point in the beginning was that McPherson snipp...
    as previously mentioned...who the Sam Hill is this individual you are fixated on?

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Ian MacPherson, 32, ...
    Second paragraph of the op linked article.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    OC, thanks for clarifying my confusion...

    apology tendered to Law...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Well said Charles. You have bared your heart and family before us. Yes I have a son who has depression. He too is brilliant. Can build any computer from scratch. Is on meds but when they run out... oh well.
    I guess I should add that I know a 4th person with diagnosed mental health issues: some kind of bipolar. He is a professional associate. Brilliant. Very hard working. Fully functional. Is more self aware than most folks who have never had a mental illness. He is on some kind of medication and sees his doctor regularly. I don't whether he has any interest in guns, but I'd have zero concern about going shooting with him or with him owning guns if he wanted to.

    Even among illnesses like "bi-polar" and "schizophrenia" there remain very diverse manifestations. Many (most??) of which do not result in any danger to others nor direct danger to oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    But many with serious mental illnesses do get hold of them and murder.
    I think it might be more accurate to say that many who commit high publicity mass murder have/had mental illness. I believe the vast majority of those with mental illness are not violent and not a danger to anyone except maybe themselves. Very few persons (mentally ill or not) ever engage in violent crimes. Among those who do, mental illness (and illicit drug use, and certain racial demographics, and men) tend to be over-represented.

    In most cases involving those with mental illness, the danger to themselves seems to come in the form of dangers of their lifestyle (eg living on the streets) or diet (including self medicating with street drugs) rather than any overt, deliberate attempt to inflict harm on themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    But the point in the beginning was that McPherson was on record of having schizophrenia agreed treatment and no one knows if he actually did. He should have been denied a legal purchase, God forbid he would buy a stolen gun.
    If he was ever adjudicated a danger to himself or others he should have been receiving treatment and proper supervision. And in that case, I'd agree that it would appropriate to limit his access to firearms. Of course, mental health care in this country is pretty poor in terms of the public health.

    But one big reason for that is our respect for individual rights. Many of us know someone we believe would benefit if only it were easier to force them to accept treatment. I expect most everyone here also recognizes the danger of making it too easy for the powers-that-be (be it government, or the mental health establishment, or family, etc) to declare someone incompetent to make their own decisions and thus eligible for forced treatment.

    Let us also consider the danger of complaining someone getting a gun who shouldn't have. There is sometimes some value in pointing out that current laws are not keeping criminals and insane people from getting guns. But that can also be easily flipped into a concession that current laws are not strong enough and therefore we should accept stronger laws. Was it not in the wake of some allegedly crazy person engaging in a mass shooting that the gun grabbers really pushed the "universal background" (aka "Universal Registration") mantra?

    In free society, the only (mostly) sure way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill who are a danger to others, is to incarcerate or institutionalize the criminals and mentally ill.

    You and I should not have to pass a background check, prove our sanity, or otherwise tolerate any prior restraint in order to exercise our RKBA. That is true whether we want to buy a gun, carry a gun, sell a gun, or even manufacture a gun. (We clearly have a lot of work left to get our laws into harmony with our natural and constitutional rights.)

    If we focus on keeping guns away from criminals and the mentally ill, we place our own RKBA at risk, I believe. We should focus on protecting our access to the means of an effective defense against those criminals and dangerously mentally ill who are not receiving proper care. Our secondary message in this area, then, might be that we need better ways to keep the criminals away from civil society and to provide better treatment for the mentally ill.

    All the best.

    Charles

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Minority report stuff we are talking here?

    We [the state] think you might be crazy so we are going to evaluate you and determine you suitability for further public interaction, or what "individual rights" you are eligible to exercise. Some folks are just fine with this arrangement.

    When shrinks are held criminally liable for getting it wrong, prosecutors and judges too, then I will rethink my view of shrinks. There was a brief, yet revealing, conversation with a shrink in the CO sub-forum. Shrinks, like cops, prosecutors, and judges, are loath to hold their counterparts and comrades accountable for getting it wrong. It is far too easy to, them that is, to advocate that "we" write a check to the aggrieved that is backed by the taxpayers...with a gag order tossed in for good measure if they can get one.

    I believe there is too much evaluating intentions and not observing outcomes going on.

    No cop shop is gunna wanna be "that cop shop" and let you walk around if someone falsely accuses you of being a nut and a danger society.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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