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Thread: No more antique cars in France?

  1. #1
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    No more antique cars in France?

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/1/118...n-smog-traffic

    All cars registered before 1997 will be banned in Paris as of July 1st, under a new law aimed at curbing the city's chronic smog and traffic problems



    Instead of banning the cars, they should ban Frenchmen ....


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUrezmW1EPI

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I've only been to France twice, but I'm fairly confident in saying that "France" is much bigger than "Paris" much the same way that "United States" is much more than "New York".

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I've only been to France twice, but I'm fairly confident in saying that "France" is much bigger than "Paris" much the same way that "United States" is much more than "New York".
    oh gosh, there you go confounding the poster with logic...sigh...

    ipse
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    I really enjoy seeing classic automobiles being driven. But, if you want to reduce man made contributions to air pollution, removing older cars is one of the most effective things you can do.

    From the Gladwell article on Power Curve Problems: (which was written in 2006)

    Quote Originally Posted by Million Dollar Murray Gladwell article
    Most cars, especially new ones, are extraordinarily clean. A 2004 Subaru in good working order has an exhaust stream that’s just .06 per cent carbon monoxide, which is negligible. But on almost any highway, for whatever reason—age, ill repair, deliberate tampering by the owner—a small number of cars can have carbon-monoxide levels in excess of ten per cent, which is almost two hundred times higher. In Denver, five per cent of the vehicles on the road produce fifty-five per cent of the automobile pollution.

    “Let’s say a car is fifteen years old,” Donald Stedman says. Stedman is a chemist and automobile-emissions specialist at the University of Denver. ... “Obviously, the older a car is the more likely it is to become broken. ...[Typically] these failure modes result in high emissions. We have at least one car in our database which was emitting seventy grams of hydrocarbon per mile, which means that you could almost drive a Honda Civic on the exhaust fumes from that car. It’s not just old cars. It’s new cars with high mileage, like taxis. One of the most successful and least publicized control measures was done by a district attorney in L.A. back in the nineties. He went to LAX and discovered that all of the Bell Cabs were gross emitters. One of those cabs emitted more than its own weight of pollution every year.”
    Here in the US our governments are pushing people the same direction with seemingly less draconian measures. Obama's "Cash for Clunkers" program (now called the Car Allowance Rebates System (or CARS, isn't that clever) encouraged people to trade in older cars for new cars. But it required those older cars to be crushed. This meant the cars were not resold, thus reducing supply and raising the price of older cars. It also meant those cars' parts were not available to be used in the repair of similar cars still in operation. This raises the costs of maintaining an older car; sometimes dramatically if new parts are not being made for such cars. All of these increase the costs of operating an older car, thus making the older car less of a bargain (compared to a newer car) than it was previously. California looks to be doing (or at least considering) a similar program at the State level.

    It doesn't seem quite so draconian as an outright ban on registering older cars. But for most of us who live in the world of limited income, the de facto effect can be no less significant.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I recall reading somewhere a few years ago, that it would actually be less expensive for the state to purchase and replace these targeted, older cars that pollute so highly rather than subject hundreds of thousands of non-polluting cars to expensive yearly tests. But, since I cannot lay my hands upon the study, just take that as an amusing anecdote.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    What about the net pollution created when making new cars vs the exhaust of old cars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I recall reading somewhere a few years ago, that it would actually be less expensive for the state to purchase and replace these targeted, older cars that pollute so highly rather than subject hundreds of thousands of non-polluting cars to expensive yearly tests. But, since I cannot lay my hands upon the study, just take that as an amusing anecdote.
    The article I linked to above points out the huge cost savings to the public if we were to implement real-time testing on freeway off ramps or busy intersections, ticketing drivers who were out of compliance (with a grace period to get the car running cleanly before any fines were assessed) in lieu of testing all cars every year when 90%+ of the cars run cleanly.

    In my State of Utah, it is the vehicle owner who pays for the testing, not the State. If we accept the claim from article I quoted that 5% of cars cause 55% of the pollution then what is the cost of replacing those 5%?

    Assume 1 million vehicles get tested every year (a simplification since we've now moved to testing new cars every other year, and older cars annually, but with a total number of cars at something like 1.2 in 2009..) at something like $25 a pop, that is some $25 million annually spent by auto owners each year. At $15k for a newish, averagish car, that is 1666 cars that could be purchased each year if the $25 million were taken in taxes to buy new cars outright. You could triple that to about 5,000 cars by offering a $5,000 incentive rather than providing 100% of the purchase cost. That works out to about 1/2%. So it would take 10 years worth of testing fees to replace the 5% of dirty cars creating over half the pollution.

    Of course, we could reduce the cost to individuals to zero simply not requiring them to test their car every year. Most newer cars self monitor and the "testing" entails having the mechanic's computer as the car's computer if emission levels are correct. When the car says, "Yes", the state is satisfied. (And thus VW gets away with providing customers higher performance by cheating on their emissions results.)

    Issue tickets to those whose cars emit too much as they drive down the road past random testing points (no need to stop) and they get to either repair their cars to run cleanly, or to get whatever penalty is deemed appropriate. Drivers could take their chances on getting caught, or have their car tested at whatever interval made sense to them. Which for most modern cars would probably be about the time the "check engine" light came on.

    Of course, auto emissions are a bigger problem in some areas than in others. Along the urban areas of Utah (the "Wasatch Front") pollution is a major concern as we sit in a bowl subject to winter temperature inversions in which cold air is trapped in the valley under warmer air above it. Pollution builds until a storm comes along to blow it out. Highly urban areas like Paris and LA have problems just from the volume of traffic. But in areas where air quality is not a problem, spending money to make cars run at their optimal cleanness may not be the best use of limited resources.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Are gasoline-fueled cars or large diesel trucks the bigger source of secondary organic aerosol (SOA), a major component of smog? UC Berkeley researchers have stepped into this debate with a new study that says diesel exhaust contributes 15 times more than gas emissions per liter of fuel burned.

    http://news.berkeley.edu/2012/10/22/...uting-to-smog/
    Hmmm. Not much different than what France is continuing to do to its citizens. Take advantage of a emergency, real or imagined.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20160127-...ncy-suspension
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Hmmm. Not much different than what France is continuing to do to its citizens. Take advantage of a emergency, real or imagined.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20160127-...ncy-suspension
    What is the output per unit of weight transported by distance traveled?

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    What is the output per unit of weight transported by distance traveled?

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    Output of what? Lbs or kilos? "Typical" terrain/road?

    Google is your friend. Poorly framed questions deserve only question(s) in return.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    What about the net pollution created when making new cars vs the exhaust of old cars?
    Another great source of debate.

    In "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal," by researcher Art Spinella of Oregon-based CNW Marketing, Spinella claimed that the total environmental cost of a hybrid Prius was actually higher than that of a Hummer.

    This article purports to rebut that claim in some broad terms.

    I personally suspect that until we have either super-capacitors to store large amounts of electrical power without the need for chemical batteries, or some way to efficiently use cleanly generated electricity to strip hydrogen from sea water and to then use that hydrogen as a clean, mobile fuel, that total environmental and other costs of hybrids and electrics in personal cars will not actually live up to the hype. On what do I base this? A simple observation.

    Hybrid diesel-electric has been the standard in rail road locomotives for several decades. They have helped make railroad the least costly way to transport goods over land (assuming you can tolerate the delay in shipping). The next logical step would be hybrid semi-tractor-trailer rigs. The big rigs have a lot more space for extra components that do passenger trucks/cars. An extra couple hundred pounds in gross weight would hardly be noticed in over-the-road trucks. And when your income is calculated in pennies per mile while hauling upwards of 50,000 pounds, lifetime cost of operation is a big deal. Notice that many semis are not equipped with the wind diverters under the trailer. These improve fuel economy by "as much as 4%" according to one source. If some kind of hybrid technology could reduce lifetime operating costs by even 5 or 10%, we'd see that technology quickly adopted.

    I believe the best bet currently for lowest environmental impact and lifetime cost of ownership is a modern, well-maintained, conservatively driven, conventional compact. .... assuming that such a car actually meets your needs. For my daily commuter needs, I'm pretty happy with a 10 year old "station car" that reliably hits 30 mpg, is comfortable and reliable, while being just ugly enough not to draw the attention of thieves and vandals.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    i suppose, specifically discussing Prius hybrids (manufactured after 1997 mind you) in general; based on a undated question asked by an out of the blue poster; to an environmental forum ~ similar to OCDO; about an completely unavailable 2007 article - Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal; which the undated article's author states, quote: Spinella is "way off the mark," says Kliesch, and scolds CNW for not having "Dust to Dust" peer-reviewed for accuracy. unquote

    yes, a completely unavailable "dust to dust"article, about a vehicle manufactured after 1997, is very, very apropos to thread's original subject of: No more antique cars in France talking about vehicles manufactured before 1997 being banned in France.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-02-2016 at 03:03 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i suppose, ...
    If you have a problem with what is being discussed the Social Lounge, or what direction a thread takes, there are polite, direct, and succinct ways to express your concern.

    Perhaps you might try that method instead of what you've done.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 06-02-2016 at 07:49 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i suppose, specifically discussing Prius hybrids (manufactured after 1997 mind you) in general; based on a undated question asked by an out of the blue poster; to an environmental forum ~ similar to OCDO; about an completely unavailable 2007 article - Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal; which the undated article's author states, quote: Spinella is "way off the mark," says Kliesch, and scolds CNW for not having "Dust to Dust" peer-reviewed for accuracy. unquote

    yes, a completely unavailable "dust to dust"article, about a vehicle manufactured after 1997, is very, very apropos to thread's original subject of: No more antique cars in France talking about vehicles manufactured before 1997 being banned in France.

    ipse
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    If you have a problem with what is being discussed the Social Lounge, or what direction a thread takes, there are polite, direct, and succinct ways to express your concern.

    Perhaps you might try that method instead of what you've done.

    Charles
    Well, I have a problem with allowing thread drift beyond the term expressed by the OP. While the mysterious article does not constitute a rule of law, a search for the title Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal" yeilds only a Server Error message:

    http://www.cnet.com/news/dust-to-dus...than-hummer/#!

    The problem still remains that there is nothing that relates to the limitations imposed by the OP. Therefore further discussion in this vane is Off Topic.
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