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Thread: shelter-in-place???

  1. #1
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    shelter-in-place???

    What are the laws if any in Ohio for police issuing a shelter-in-place order?
    Can police just order you off the street or your porch?
    Who makes that call patrol officer, chief, mayor?
    There was a active shooter last night and people in the area couldn't go home or leave their homes.


    Mike D

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    What are the laws if any in Ohio for police issuing a shelter-in-place order?
    Can police just order you off the street or your porch?
    Who makes that call patrol officer, chief, mayor?
    There was a active shooter last night and people in the area couldn't go home or leave their homes.


    Mike D
    You must have been reading my mind.

    Early this morning I did a open records request about this very question. Now, I can tell you Ohio does have a shelter in place for K-12 (schools) only.

    Here is my request, the answer and reply.
    This is an Open Record Request per Ohio Revised Code 149.43.
    This request is in regards to the June 9/10, 2016 Deerfield Township shooting involving a deputy sheriff.
    According to many news reports a “shelter in place order” was issued by the sheriff.
    Therefore, please provide a copy of that order,“shelter in place order”. An E-mail reply with a PDF copy attached is acceptable.
    If no such order was issued please so state.
    Your prompt reply would be appreciated.
    Thank you.
    In regards to your email, there is no paper order available. This was done verbally.
    I hope this helps.
    Barry
    Then what statutory authority did the sheriff rely on to issue such verbal order?
    Thanks for your reply.
    At this point I'm waiting for a response.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    home land security: http://www.nationalterroralert.com/shelterinplace/ with reference to environmentally released biologics/chemicals/radiological agents

    one site mentioned terrorist attacks and natural disasters...http://www.ussecurityassociates.com/...r-in-place.pdf

    several sites were in a 'rose by any other name is still martial law' mentality...

    so a further query...if the sheriff is the highest elected peace officer in every county of the nation are they the only entity who can call for a citizen's shelter in place action ?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    home land security: http://www.nationalterroralert.com/shelterinplace/ with reference to environmentally released biologics/chemicals/radiological agents

    one site mentioned terrorist attacks and natural disasters...http://www.ussecurityassociates.com/...r-in-place.pdf

    several sites were in a 'rose by any other name is still martial law' mentality...

    so a further query...if the sheriff is the highest elected peace officer in every county of the nation are they the only entity who can call for a citizen's shelter in place action ?

    ipse
    Government websites end in .gov, not .com.
    NationalTerrorAlert.com is a private homeland security blog and not affiliated with any government agency.
    http://www.nationalterroralert.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Government websites end in .gov, not .com.

    http://www.nationalterroralert.com/about-us/
    bloody hell hate it when i get sucked in by flim-flam artists

    thanks for the excellent catch...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    bloody hell hate it when i get sucked in by flim-flam artists

    thanks for the excellent catch...

    ipse
    It happens....

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    home land security: http://www.nationalterroralert.com/shelterinplace/ with reference to environmentally released biologics/chemicals/radiological agents

    one site mentioned terrorist attacks and natural disasters...http://www.ussecurityassociates.com/...r-in-place.pdf

    several sites were in a 'rose by any other name is still martial law' mentality...

    so a further query...if the sheriff is the highest elected peace officer in every county of the nation are they the only entity who can call for a citizen's shelter in place action ?

    ipse




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    A local radio host (who is a lawyer) talked about this today on 55krc. He said a shelter in place or is simply an advisory to the public. He said you can still travel as you please.


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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animalou812 View Post
    A local radio host (who is a lawyer) talked about this today on 55krc. He said a shelter in place or is simply an advisory to the public. He said you can still travel as you please.


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    Typical BS attorney response. I bet he didn't address the term "order."
    Therefore, please provide a copy of that order,“shelter in place order”.
    Black's Law Dictionary - Order. A mandate; precept; command or direction authoritatively given.

    The sheriff gave an ORDER. The sheriff did not request persons to shelter in place. The term order is used to deceive the public.

    Words are important. I despise government officials that use words to deceive the public.

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    Regular Member Animalou812's Avatar
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    On the local news they interviewed local people that lived in that area. People were giving their accounts of running into the police unaware of "the order". All the people said the cops just told them to be careful and went on their way.


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    I buried the wifey , just to be extra-safe .... who listens to these commands that tread on my rights to travel?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 06-11-2016 at 11:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Typical BS attorney response. I bet he didn't address the term "order." Black's Law Dictionary - Order. A mandate; precept; command or direction authoritatively given.

    The sheriff gave an ORDER. The sheriff did not request persons to shelter in place. The term order is used to deceive the public.

    Words are important. I despise government officials that use words to deceive the public.
    Agreed.

    Congress doesn't read the laws before it passes them; why earth would one expect a sheriff to consult his statutory authority before spouting "orders"?

    Separately, some years ago I read an interesting explanation of why government violates rights: rights are not necessary to what government wants to do. The more I thought about it, the more sweeping that comment seemed. Think about it: rights are an impediment to whatever a government agent wants to do. From a different angle, imagine giving a group of people a monopoly on force, and layers of protection against removal from office, and then expecting them to actually observe restrictions on their actions. Yeah, suuuuuure. Like that is gonna work.
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-12-2016 at 12:52 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I looked into what orders are lawful in Wisconsin, and found that all law enforcement orders are lawful except those that demand statutorily unlawful actions.

    The hypothetical at hand was me being threatened, by a particularly despicable cop, with citation for disobeying a lawful order for exiting and securing my vehicle in a traffic stop.

    Presumed means true absent evidence to the contrary. Cop orders are presumed lawful.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Anybody can give "orders". Accepting and obeying those orders is another matter. You can obey every "order" given to you by every person you have contact with, or you can chose to live your life freely. It is your choice. I have a few "orders" for some members here. I hope they will be obeyed, but somehow expect them to be ignored. I suspect that many here are "ordered" around almost every day, by their wives, their children, and everybody else they deal with. Some people like "orders". It makes life much more simple when somebody makes all of your decisions for you. Others would rather make their own decisions. It is called liberty. I once had a friend call me. He was in the hospital and wanted to leave and wanted to know what to do. I told him that if he really wanted to leave, get up, put your pants on and start walking. He asked, "Can I do that"? I said that I wasn't sure if he could or not, it didn't sound like he could. Not because he wasn't allowed to, it just seemed that he was incapable of actually doing it. He said that "they" told him that he "couldn't" leave. I told him to be outside in 15 mins. and I'd be there to pick him up. When I showed up he said that "they" "made him sign some papers" and I asked how they had "made" him do it. He said they told him he had to and he did it. SMH Some of us have allowed ourselves to be pushed around and now are incapable of asserting ourselves. We are so compliant that we have lost sovereignty over our own lives.
    You are taut from the day you are born to be compliant. My mother always said I was bucking orders coming out of her womb.
    Last edited by color of law; 06-12-2016 at 08:36 AM.

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    My take as a fire/EMS worker in Ohio is that it's in large part the media that has ratcheted up the terminology in these matters from "advisory" to "order". Some emergency service spokespersons probably don't care enough to correct the reporters, and a few may even invoke the O word on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    Yes, and if we allow it to go on long enough, it will be written into law in a very short time. The "correction" needs to be made loudly and often.
    For what it's worth, gutshot, with others here on the job I've helped rein in overzealous coworkers and bosses a few times with regards to how much authority we (don't) have in various situations. Also, any time it seems needed, there will be a few of us who step-by-step question new policies that don't read as constitutional/civil rights-friendly, if you will. Overall I'd say our efforts have had a positive impact through the years. Hopefully there are a few check valves like us in all emergency service agencies, but sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
    Last edited by Brian D.; 06-13-2016 at 09:00 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Larry L. Sims of the Warren County Sheriff Dept. made it clear that it was a verbal "ORDER." News media did not choose that term.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Larry L. Sims of the Warren County Sheriff Dept. made it clear that it was a verbal "ORDER." News media did not choose that term.
    so, CoL...what does that specifically mean to JQPublic...verbal order...if citizens fail to heed said order are they now 'failing to obey a police order' and citable (sp)?

    btw, thanks for pursuing this nuance...

    ipse

    added...secondary concept...and the good citizen is OC'g??
    Last edited by solus; 06-13-2016 at 10:47 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    That is "worth" a lot and knowing you, I am sure that it is true. Things like this creep very quickly from being just one word casually written in policy to statute violation with jail time and fine. Once they become ingrained in people's minds it is difficult to overcome, or even explain. Funny that, when left on its own, it only seems to move in one direction. If it were truly accidental or unconscious, it seems that it would be random and move in both directions, both more restrictive and less restrictive, but government inertial is unidirectional, always seeking more power and more authority. It is just like water always running downhill
    And into the gutter.....

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so, CoL...what does that specifically mean to JQPublic...verbal order...if citizens fail to heed said order are they now 'failing to obey a police order' and citable (sp)?

    btw, thanks for pursuing this nuance...

    ipse

    added...secondary concept...and the good citizen is OC'g??
    It means that JQPublic was intentionally deceived. The sheriff breached his oath of office. The sheriff issued an unlawful order.

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Tread lightly around a cop who gives a order, he is likely to use force to gain compliance. Be comforted in the knowledge that you, or your survivors, will receive a tax payer backed check if the cop was found to have gained compliance from a unlawful order.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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