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Thread: Another Case Of Unsecured Handgun

  1. #1
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    Another Case Of Unsecured Handgun

    This is a sad story about a teen using her mom's gun to kill herself. Please, lets secure our guns well so these kink of things are minimized. I wish they could be completely eliminated but that isn't reality. I think more training is required for keeping handguns out of the hands of kids and teens when applying for a permit/lisence etc...

    A family in Tampa expected to be celebrating the completion of 15-year-old Tovonna Holton’s freshman year at Wiregrass Ranch High School, but instead they’re preparing her funeral — and it’s all because of cyberbullying.The teen used her mother’s handgun to take her own life this past Sunday....

    https://www.yahoo.com/style/nude-sha...141729542.html

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    This is a sad story about a teen using her mom's gun to kill herself. Please, lets secure our guns well so these kink of things are minimized. I wish they could be completely eliminated but that isn't reality. I think more training is required for keeping handguns out of the hands of kids and teens when applying for a permit/lisence etc...

    A family in Tampa expected to be celebrating the completion of 15-year-old Tovonna Holton’s freshman year at Wiregrass Ranch High School, but instead they’re preparing her funeral — and it’s all because of cyberbullying.The teen used her mother’s handgun to take her own life this past Sunday....

    https://www.yahoo.com/style/nude-sha...141729542.html
    bad gun, bad...

    shall we ensure firearms are locked away w/o ammo, separately locked in another area to preclude this from occurring in the future...

    strange...sounds like the anti's mantra doesn't it??

    in a more practical aspect...how bout discerning how the young lady's nude shower fotos got taken in the first place? by whom? how did they get posted on the internet? who sent them around?

    finally, what say we investigate the alleged bullying aspects of this poor situation?

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    bad gun, bad...

    shall we ensure firearms are locked away w/o ammo, separately locked in another area to preclude this from occurring in the future...

    strange...sounds like the anti's mantra doesn't it??

    in a more practical aspect...how bout discerning how the young lady's nude shower fotos got taken in the first place? by whom? how did they get posted on the internet? who sent them around?

    finally, what say we investigate the alleged bullying aspects of this poor situation?

    ipse
    i think he's a troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    i think he's a troll.
    so hammer...your disparaging remarks are of great contribution to the OP's thread, please, oh please enlighten us all on your thoughts on the subject so a viable discussion might ensue?

    ipse
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    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    This is a sad story about a teen using her mom's gun to kill herself. Please, lets secure our guns well so these kink of things are minimized. I wish they could be completely eliminated but that isn't reality. I think more training is required for keeping handguns out of the hands of kids and teens when applying for a permit/lisence etc...

    A family in Tampa expected to be celebrating the completion of 15-year-old Tovonna Holton’s freshman year at Wiregrass Ranch High School, but instead they’re preparing her funeral — and it’s all because of cyberbullying.The teen used her mother’s handgun to take her own life this past Sunday....

    https://www.yahoo.com/style/nude-sha...141729542.html
    Are we to ban rope, sleeping pills and a long list of cleaning supplies too?

    I person bent on suicide will find a way.

    Would it work to just make committing suicide illegal?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-10-2016 at 06:06 PM.
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    This is a tragic case of a bullied teenager taking her own life. I can only imagine that her "friends" (so called) used a smartphone camera to record her showering in a school or other locker room. My condolences to her family and other loved ones.

    The case has very little to do with firearms, secured or otherwise. By 15, most well behaved, well adjusted teens are old enough to be entrusted with access to firearms. How many of us didn't have at-will access to at least a .22 rifle and/or shotgun by the time we were that age?

    I think gun owners have a natural incentive to avoid having their firearms stolen or misused.

    I believe the vast majority of parents have a love for their children and a desire for their children's welfare that exceeds any government official's ability to surpass with laws, regulations, policies, or bureaucracy.

    I believe that gun owners are in the best situation to determine what level of security is appropriate for their potentially dangerous and/or valuable property. This includes firearms, knives, car keys, accelerants and matches, household chemicals, and so on.

    I believe general negligence laws are more than sufficient in the rare case of a parent being grossly or recklessly negligent in allowing a known suicidal, troubled, or criminal child to access a firearm.

    Give an inch on what is legally required for safe storage and we'll quickly awake to find that any theft of misuse of a gun is prima facia evidence the gun wasn't secured sufficiently thus imparting strict liability to the gun owner.

    Charles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Are we to ban rope, sleeping pills and a long list of cleaning supplies too?

    I person bent on suicide will find a way.

    Would it work to just make committing suicide illegal?
    No to all above. But my point was to secure a gun in a way that only the owner has the ability to use it. Now the mom is in trouble because a loaded gun was at had for the teen to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so hammer...your disparaging remarks are of great contribution to the OP's thread, please, oh please enlighten us all on your thoughts on the subject so a viable discussion might ensue?

    ipse
    i wasn't implying you were a troll...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    No to all above. But my point was to secure a gun in a way that only the owner has the ability to use it. Now the mom is in trouble because a loaded gun was at had for the teen to use.

    Many studies show that when guns are not available people bent on suicide find some other way.

    In my home and the home I grew up there were always firearms readily available.

    No this should not be about the firearm.

    But anti's always like to place the blame on the object instead of the cause.

    The lock them up and away is just another ploy by the anti's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Would it work to just make committing suicide illegal?
    And we could send SWAT teams to make sure a suicidal person never gets the chance to commit suicide.

    (I hope the sarcasm in both the question and my answer are both obvious despite the lack of the sarcasm font.)
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    ... I think more training is required for keeping handguns out of the hands of kids and teens when applying for a permit/license, etc...
    Well, there's part of the problem. Firearms safety training belongs in public school where it becomes part of our culture, not just during some testing procedure for an unconstitutional permit.

    But the real problem is that TV and school are raising the next generation, not parents. So when school fails the kids, they have no life to look forward to. The parents will disagree, of course, and blame some inanimate object, regardless of its convenience. I'm sure the daughter knew how to access the car, too, or a bridge.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-10-2016 at 07:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    No to all above. But my point was to secure a gun in a way that only the owner has the ability to use it. Now the mom is in trouble because a loaded gun was at had for the teen to use.
    Don't worry, Barry and Hillary are working on that for you...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Are we to ban rope, sleeping pills and a long list of cleaning supplies too?

    I person bent on suicide will find a way.

    Would it work to just make committing suicide illegal?
    IIRC but can't remember the statutes, I believe in some states suicide is illegal. I have arrested a few for suicide attempts, but they are never charged, just committed.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Are we to ban rope, sleeping pills and a long list of cleaning supplies too?

    I person bent on suicide will find a way.

    Would it work to just make committing suicide illegal?
    California just re-enabled legal assisted suicide.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ns-california/

    While the materials were legal and inexpensive in California, where my mother was, I was her healthcare agent and executor trustee. When they made it impractical then she moved to Oregon and we transferred the authority to my sister. In the end Parkinsonism removed her personal agency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    [A] person bent on suicide will find a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Many studies show that when guns are not available people bent on suicide find some other way.
    In the interest of our side being the one that is accurate and honest we must concede that for all the same reasons that firearms are our tools of choice for self-defense, they are particularly potent for suicide. The biggest problems firearms pose for suicide are:

    1-The effect is pretty much instant. A hole is made somewhere. Other than a gutshot or flesh wound where bleeding out is the only risk of death, there is effectively zero time between pulling the trigger and whatever the bad effect is going to be. No time to pump a stomach, or give antidotes. No chance to find someone 10 minutes after they pass out and drag them out to fresh air.

    2-It is easy and doesn't take much creativity. No need to acquire pills, or figure out how to tie a rope. Part of this, I think, is a perception that a properly placed gunshot is likely to be very quick and very near painless.

    Bearing this in mind, we look at data such as from this 2008 report in the New England Journal of Medicine shortly after the Heller decision. Admittedly, the anti-gun bias is beyond overt. But unless the data is blatantly in error, it does highlight why suicide by firearm presents special problems for preventing suicide and giving folks a second chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEJM
    In 2005, the most recent year for which mortality data are available, suicide was the second-leading cause of death among Americans 40 years of age or younger. Among Americans of all ages, more than half of all [SUCCESSFUL] suicides are gun suicides.

    ...

    Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2

    Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal.

    Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often.
    [emphasis added as was the word "successful" in the first paragraph]

    The bolded portions highlight the reality of the effectiveness of guns. More than 90% of suicide attempts involve drugs or cutting (meaning well fewer than half of all suicide attempts involve firearms), but over half all successful suicides used a firearm. Guns are uniquely effective. The odds of getting a second chance are much lower when using a gun than when not.

    This to me begs the question of whether those who are truly committed are more likely to use a gun while those who are hoping to be stopped pick a less effective method. But taken at face value, guns do post a unique risk for suicidal individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    The lock them up and away is just another ploy by the anti's.
    This is always going to be at play. And so we must resist it.

    At the same time, in those cases where a person is known or believed to be suicidal or at risk of being suicidal, it is prudent for parents/guardians or friends and family to do what they reasonably and legally can to limit access to firearms. This is far different than imposing or accepting a general, legally enforced requirement to lock up all guns.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    He's a good article on suicide by country.

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2015/11...-rates-by.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    No to all above. But my point was to secure a gun in a way that only the owner has the ability to use it. Now the mom is in trouble because a loaded gun was at had for the teen to use.
    But why is the mom in trouble and why should she be?

    If she had found her daughter in the garage with the car engine running, would she be in trouble for leaving the car keys on the table where her 15 year old daughter (who might well have a learner's permit or even driver license in certain States could get to them?

    If her daughter had cut her wrists and bled to death in the shower would mom be in trouble for leaving razor blades where a 15 year old (who can get an abortion in many States without even parental notification, much less consent) could get to them?

    If her daughter had tied a plastic bag around her head or a noose around her neck, would mom be in trouble for not keeping those household items locked up?

    200 people a year die in this nation from inadvertent overdose of acetaminophen. While most ultimately die from liver failure a short time after the overdose, they died nonetheless. If a 15 year old girl (who probably self medicates every month for menstrual issues) downs an entire bottle of Tylenol and dies, does mom get in trouble for not having the OTC fever reducer locked up?

    My point is, why do we--as gun owners--allow guns to be treated so very differently than every other household object that might be dangerous?

    We need to stand up against laws and social stigma. And a big part of that is to stop throwing our own to the wolves every time one of them has something bad happen with a gun. Whether an accident (that could have been prevented with 100% due diligence) or a theft or suicide by a family member, we've got to get off our collective high horses.

    Culturally, we tend to be much harder on fellow gun owners for imperfection than we are on fellow drivers.

    Let's not be part of attacking the RKBA.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    as i have stated previously on this subject...little johnny has a horrible traffic accident at midnight and dies after hitting a tree...nobody does a forensic work-up to determine little johnny just committed suicide...but the caregivers & family are spared that shame and little johnny is buried in the 'blessed' part of the cemetery and the parents collect the insurance.

    according to the CDC self harm (read as suicide) is the tenth cause of death in America! http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lcwk9_2014.pdf

    quote:
    42,774 died each year by self harm.

    In 2014, the highest suicide rate (19.3) was among people 85 years or older. The second highest rate (19.2) occurred in those between 45 and 64 years of age. Younger groups have had consistently lower suicide rates than middle-aged and older adults. In 2014, adolescents and young adults aged 15 to 24 had a suicide rate of 11.6.

    (added: equates to >85 = 9.6K; 45-64 = 9.6K; 15-24 = 5.7k persons who died)

    In 2014, the highest U.S. suicide rate (14.7) was among Whites and the second highest rate (10.9) was among American Indians and Alaska Natives (Figure 5). Much lower and roughly similar rates were found among Hispanics (6.3), Asians and Pacific Islanders (5.9), and Blacks (5.5).

    In 2014, firearms were the most common method of death by suicide, accounting for a little less than half (49.9%) of all suicide deaths. The next most common methods were suffocation (including hangings) at 26.7% and poisoning at 15.9%.

    The ratio of suicide attempts to suicide death in youth is estimated to be about 25:1, compared to about 4:1 in the elderly.

    for every suicide there are 25 attempts! unquote https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

    again, i doubt there will be a work up or a release of information if this young lady has attempted self harm in the past...

    fyi, utah has an higher rate per 100K of self harm and even California or even Florida. (MT seems to have the highest for some reason...hummm)

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    But why is the mom in trouble and why should she be?

    If she had found her daughter in the garage with the car engine running, would she be in trouble for leaving the car keys on the table where her 15 year old daughter (who might well have a learner's permit or even driver license in certain States could get to them?

    If her daughter had cut her wrists and bled to death in the shower would mom be in trouble for leaving razor blades where a 15 year old (who can get an abortion in many States without even parental notification, much less consent) could get to them?

    If her daughter had tied a plastic bag around her head or a noose around her neck, would mom be in trouble for not keeping those household items locked up?

    200 people a year die in this nation from inadvertent overdose of acetaminophen. While most ultimately die from liver failure a short time after the overdose, they died nonetheless. If a 15 year old girl (who probably self medicates every month for menstrual issues) downs an entire bottle of Tylenol and dies, does mom get in trouble for not having the OTC fever reducer locked up?

    My point is, why do we--as gun owners--allow guns to be treated so very differently than every other household object that might be dangerous?

    We need to stand up against laws and social stigma. And a big part of that is to stop throwing our own to the wolves every time one of them has something bad happen with a gun. Whether an accident (that could have been prevented with 100% due diligence) or a theft or suicide by a family member, we've got to get off our collective high horses.

    Culturally, we tend to be much harder on fellow gun owners for imperfection than we are on fellow drivers.

    Let's not be part of attacking the RKBA.

    Charles
    preach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    again, i doubt there will be a work up or a release of information if this young lady has attempted self harm in the past...
    Ignoring all religious, social, and legal stigma, there are some additional differences between suicide by gun and other methods. There are many ways a person might die where a reasonable belief of accident is easy to maintain. Self inflicted gun shots are most often not in that category.


    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    fyi, utah has an higher rate per 100K of self harm and even California or even Florida. (MT seems to have the highest for some reason...hummm)
    An internet search for "suicide and altitude" will reveal that there exists a major correlation between the altitude at which one lives and the rate of suicide. One article, among many, that reports on this is found here:

    Quote Originally Posted by medicinenet.com
    "Once you get to somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 feet, you start seeing the suicide rates increase," explained study author Dr. Barry E. Brenner, a professor of emergency medicine and internal medicine, as well as program director, in the department of emergency medicine at University Hospital Case Medical Center in Cleveland. "The correlation is very, very, very high, and it happens in every single region of the U.S."

    "And yet as you go up in altitude the overall death rate, or all-cause mortality, actually decreases," Brenner noted. "So, the fact that suicide rates are increasing at the same time is a really significant and really striking finding."

    Brenner and his colleagues discuss their results in the Jan. 18 online issue of High Altitude Medicine & Biology.
    Interesting, you compared Utah to two coastal States, California and Florida. The lowest elevation in Utah with any notable population is the St. George area (about 155,000 residents) at an elevation of about 2,860 feet. The bulk of our State's population lives along the Wasatch Front comprising the Salt Lake City metro area (~1.1 million residents), the Provo metro area (~500k residents), and the Ogden metro area (~500k residents). The altitude of the valley floor in these areas is about 4,200 feet, with many residents spending significant time at higher elevations for snow skiing, hunting, camping, mountain biking, etc. The city of Park City, Utah sits at over 7,000 foot elevation while the lodge at Solitude, Utah is just over 8,000 foot elevation. The ski lifts peak out at over 10,000 foot elevation. Likewise, most communities in Montana are between 2,000 and 5,500 feet in elevation.

    Of course, cultural views on suicide also have significant impact as we looking at various Asian cultures. What cultural views might increase the number of suicides in the Western (ie Intermountain or Rocky Mountain) parts of the United States, has never been very well explained, IMO.

    Charles
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    Ok, once again mate, you grab something, anything, you feel might boost your status without truly reviewing the rhetoric attached to what you are putting out…


    In this case, you are promoting a synopsis of a 2011 article instead of Brenner’s original online article which states the cleveland ER doc used CDC data from 1979- 1998 (High Altitude Linked to Higher Suicide Risk – Again https://consumer.healthday.com/publi...in-649012.html)
    1. To bolster Brenner’s theory, he piggy tailed his article on Renshaw’s 2010 article in the American Journal of Psychiatry on the same subject, using the same CDC data and also contains the following caveat, quote:
    The researchers caution that their results do not necessarily mean altitude drives one to commit suicide. Unquote.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-su...68S47S20100929

    2. Quote: For the time being, Brenner and his colleagues cautioned that attempts to explain the association are "speculative." Unquote

    3. Quote: It may be related to obesity levels and sleep apnea that may be more common in higher altitudes," Brenner suggested. Unquote.


    Tho I do thank you mate for providing an interesting and sensitive insight, tho unsubstantiated and flawed since both articles used olde & unverified data per se, on why those in higher MIGHT be inclined towards self harm which could be from obesity levels, sleep apnea, oh and ya possibly the altitude.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-12-2016 at 11:42 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Are we to ban rope, sleeping pills and a long list of cleaning supplies too?

    I person bent on suicide will find a way.

    Would it work to just make committing suicide illegal?
    I've been there. 12ga in my mouth.

    Ironically, you know what stopped me?

    The fact that it would have been used as an excuse to strip others of their Rights. Even in death, I would still be twisted to the will of evil... No way. Not gonna happen. I won't let me be used for that.

    And so, I understand that pain is worth it, and that my own life is not valuable unless I use it for good, and that this life is not really my own, and I live to fight another day...

    Amazing what you can learn from depression, if you're not selfish.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    An internet search for "suicide and altitude" will reveal that there exists a major correlation between the altitude at which one lives and the rate of suicide.
    Correlation is not necessarily causation.

    You'll notice there is also a correlation between population density. But then, there's Japan... Clearly, Altitude and Population Density are not the cause, even if they correlate. Also, the sky was blue on all occasions...

    Some people can't handle isolation, being with self...

    Regardless, it's still not the gun's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    But why is the mom in trouble and why should she be?

    If she had found her daughter in the garage with the car engine running, would she be in trouble for leaving the car keys on the table where her 15 year old daughter (who might well have a learner's permit or even driver license in certain States could get to them?

    If her daughter had cut her wrists and bled to death in the shower would mom be in trouble for leaving razor blades where a 15 year old (who can get an abortion in many States without even parental notification, much less consent) could get to them?

    If her daughter had tied a plastic bag around her head or a noose around her neck, would mom be in trouble for not keeping those household items locked up?
    Robin Williams, the only Democrat I miss, nailed it:

    "I used to think that the worst thing that can happen in life is to end up alone, it's not. The worst thing that can happen is to end up with people who make you feel alone." - Robin Williams.

    For me, being around people is worse than isolation, because it shows me that even in a crowd, I'm still alone when surrounded by these empty animals.

    It's much less potent when not surrounded by horrible people.

    I understand being suicidal. I spent most of my life that way. Surrounded by garbage people.

    It's still not the gun's fault.
    Last edited by ixtow; 06-12-2016 at 06:37 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    ixtow, extremely sorry to hear about the demons you have faced during your lifetime which led to your past contemplated of self harm and am truly glad you have apparently found solace in your life to keep your internal balance so we can have these types of continuing discussions.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    California just re-enabled legal assisted suicide.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ns-california/
    And it is the same do-gooders that want to make it very difficult, if not illegal, for drugs t/b made for State-sanctioned executions of those on Death Row.


    I have never been had the misfortune to be seriously depressed, but have two reference items I have learned:

    “The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

    Faustus part of Ch 14, by Christopher Marlowe - after selling his soul for cunning and now the bill is due...

    Now hast thou but one bare hour to live,
    And then thou must be damn’d perpetually!
    Stand still, you ever-moving spheres of Heaven,
    That time may cease, and midnight never come;
    Fair Nature’s eye, rise, rise again and make
    Perpetual day; or let this hour be but
    A year, a month, a week, a natural day,
    That Faustus may repent and save his soul!
    O lente, lente, curite noctis equi.[Slowly, slowly run, o horses of the night]
    The stars move still, time runs, the clock will strike,
    The Devil will come, and Faustus must be damn’d.
    O, I’ll leap up to my God! Who pulls me down?
    See, see where Christ’s blood streams in the firmament!
    One drop would save my soul—half a drop: ah, my Christ!
    Ah, rend not my heart for naming of my Christ!
    Yet will I call on him: O spare me, Lucifer!—

    Faustus ends up in the hot place when midnight comes...
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

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