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Thread: One account of the Orlando shooting

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    One account of the Orlando shooting

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us...shootings.html

    Looks like the 3 hr time period (noted in prior threads) for police response was accurate, one off duty cop did try (clearly not able to hit the target)~ IMO...not something I would consider an adequate response.

    I'm sure that there will be many articles about this shooting....its a news article, so take it for what it is.

    I would guess that the cops who initially showed up had their patrol rifles ... and could not hit the broadside of a barn with them ~ as I have seen with PDs in my area.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 06-14-2016 at 08:34 PM.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    I don't know about the broadside of a barn, but they certainly couldn't hit the broadside of a brain.

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    Surely didn't sound like any "Dirty Harry" scenario, where somebody had the fortitude (cojones) to walk in and do what was needed to be done.

    Almost sounds like a "Dunkin Donuts" pit stop was in order first.

    Might sound rude, and I can understand caution, but 3 hours!? Geesh.
    Last edited by MarkD51; 06-14-2016 at 07:24 PM.

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    Long delays to engage an active shooter are, sadly, not uncommon. I recall that the Columbine SWAT team took hours to assess that particular situation, establish a command post and perimeter and develop an entry and engagement plan before they went into the school. Evaluation of that event led to some changes in doctrine regarding active shooters, including engaging the active shooter with whatever response was available as soon as possible and NOT waiting for backup or SWAT. The off duty officer at the scene apparently tried to do just that and immediately engage, but was unsuccessful. The active shooter was apparently a well trained security guard who guarded Florida courts and worked for a major TSA security contractor!!! I would speculate that he was probably well versed on police response to an active shooter situation and probably had undergone that training himself. The off duty officer and the first two responding officers tried to engage the bad guy a short time later, but succeeded only in driving the shooter into a bathroom filled with innocents, setting up a hostage situation that the SWAT team resolved 3 hours later.

    I'm sure there will be lots of analysis and what-if questioning as the investigation unfolds. Based on what I think I know right now, I can't fault the actions of those first 3 officers. They tried to engage right away, but were up against an adversary who was well armed and better trained than the typical suicide terrorist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    Long delays to engage an active shooter are, sadly, not uncommon. I recall that the Columbine SWAT team took hours to assess that particular situation, establish a command post and perimeter and develop an entry and engagement plan before they went into the school. Evaluation of that event led to some changes in doctrine regarding active shooters, including engaging the active shooter with whatever response was available as soon as possible and NOT waiting for backup or SWAT. The off duty officer at the scene apparently tried to do just that and immediately engage, but was unsuccessful. The active shooter was apparently a well trained security guard who guarded Florida courts and worked for a major TSA security contractor!!! I would speculate that he was probably well versed on police response to an active shooter situation and probably had undergone that training himself. The off duty officer and the first two responding officers tried to engage the bad guy a short time later, but succeeded only in driving the shooter into a bathroom filled with innocents, setting up a hostage situation that the SWAT team resolved 3 hours later.

    I'm sure there will be lots of analysis and what-if questioning as the investigation unfolds. Based on what I think I know right now, I can't fault the actions of those first 3 officers. They tried to engage right away, but were up against an adversary who was well armed and better trained than the typical suicide terrorist.
    That's the first possible explanation I have seen that actually makes sense. +1
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    Long delays to engage an active shooter are, sadly, not uncommon. I recall that the Columbine SWAT team took hours to assess that particular situation, establish a command post and perimeter and develop an entry and engagement plan before they went into the school. Evaluation of that event led to some changes in doctrine regarding active shooters, including engaging the active shooter with whatever response was available as soon as possible and NOT waiting for backup or SWAT. The off duty officer at the scene apparently tried to do just that and immediately engage, but was unsuccessful. The active shooter was apparently a well trained security guard who guarded Florida courts and worked for a major TSA security contractor!!! I would speculate that he was probably well versed on police response to an active shooter situation and probably had undergone that training himself. The off duty officer and the first two responding officers tried to engage the bad guy a short time later, but succeeded only in driving the shooter into a bathroom filled with innocents, setting up a hostage situation that the SWAT team resolved 3 hours later.

    I'm sure there will be lots of analysis and what-if questioning as the investigation unfolds. Based on what I think I know right now, I can't fault the actions of those first 3 officers. They tried to engage right away, but were up against an adversary who was well armed and better trained than the typical suicide terrorist.
    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    That's the first possible explanation I have seen that actually makes sense. +1
    Excellant analysis. We shall see how this plays out.
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    Even my Milwaukee right-wing talk-show host is cautioning against glib explanations (the narrative fallacy) proffered by those that will benefit from quick resolution.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    <snip>

    I'm sure there will be lots of analysis and what-if questioning as the investigation unfolds. Based on what I think I know right now, I can't fault the actions of those first 3 officers. They tried to engage right away, but were up against an adversary who was well armed and better trained than the typical suicide terrorist.
    Question I would have would be: When did he shoot people over time? If, for example, he only shot one person in the first hour, then the police could have (sure, at risk) minimized the civilians (see cops don't think that they are civilians ~ yet they do not act like military personnel either) being killed.

    3 hrs? What did they have a kick-off lunch to start their day? Anyone who thinks 3 hrs is OK is simply apologizing.


    We'll never get the actual facts I would assume. Just like Sandy Hook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD51 View Post
    Might sound rude, and I can understand caution, but 3 hours!? Geesh.
    Agreed. The burning question in my mind is, "How many more people died during those three hours?"

    I also cannot help but wonder if the shooter planned the "hostage" situation as an intentional delaying tactic?

    There are times for such delays, such as a bank robbery with clear hostages and no shots fired. But when patrons are running out saying "active shooter," there needs to be an immediate response to render the shooter inactive.

    Yes, it's dangerous. That's why they're paid the big bucks.1

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    From what I can glean from reports, as many as 30 of the victims were executed when cornered in the bathroom with the terrorist. He apparently was walking up and executing wounded who were still alive in the bathroom, perhaps in other areas as well. It's all still pretty convoluted as to how it all went down inside. Just horrifying and horrible. The slaughter of innocents infuriates me.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    There was the one girl recording a video of herself - when you heard the shooting first begin over the music - it sounded like he was firing rapidly - understand she was killed


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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Agreed. The burning question in my mind is, "How many more people died during those three hours?"

    I also cannot help but wonder if the shooter planned the "hostage" situation as an intentional delaying tactic?

    There are times for such delays, such as a bank robbery with clear hostages and no shots fired. But when patrons are running out saying "active shooter," there needs to be an immediate response to render the shooter inactive.

    Yes, it's dangerous. That's why they're paid the big bucks.1

    1Tongue in cheek. It's what we used to say before going on dangerous missions.
    Me I'm 61 years old, pretty much ready for the Glue Factory, but you know what? If I was given the permission, and the armament to walk in that nightclub's door, I wouldn't give a rat's patoot if they were paying me $7.50/hr, I'd go for ******* broke, and it would be me, or him.

    Some might say, yeah, you're just nothing more than a "keyboard commando", but I truly don't think so. Hand me my colt 45, and a few clips, a bulletproof vest, I'm walking in, screw it.

    As the saying goes, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

    That retard in the white house has militarized just about every police dept in the nation with free gibs, MRAPS, etc, but I surely don't see many police departments getting better at the jobs they do.

    Didn't that one time in NY, the police shoot more innocents than the perps did?
    Last edited by MarkD51; 06-17-2016 at 10:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD51 View Post
    Me I'm 61 years old, pretty much ready for the Glue Factory, but you know what? If I was given the permission, and the armament to walk in that nightclub's door, I wouldn't give a rat's patoot if they were paying me $7.50/hr, I'd go for ******* broke, and it would be me, or him.

    Some might say, yeah, you're just nothing more than a "keyboard commando", but I truly don't think so. Hand me my colt 45, and a few clips, a bulletproof vest, I'm walking in, screw it.

    As the saying goes, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

    That retard in the white house has militarized just about every police dept in the nation with free gibs, MRAPS, etc, but I surely don't see many police departments getting better at the jobs they do.

    Didn't that one time in NY, the police shoot more innocents than the perps did?
    agree, a hundred percent...

    our military does just that on a daily basis...step out and take care of business.

    also do not know why the police didn't use loudspeakers to tell those inside to attack the shooter......300 against one?

    finally where is this mysterious off duty LE that 'shot' at the shooter in the initial outbursts? hummmm?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-17-2016 at 10:23 PM.
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    Regular Member MarkD51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    agree, a hundred percent...

    our military does just that on a daily basis...step out and take care of business.

    also do not know why the police didn't use loudspeakers to tell those inside to attack the shooter......300 against one?

    finally where is this mysterious off duty LE that 'shot' at the shooter in the initial outbursts? hummmm?

    ipse
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    Just like Clint Eastwood did in the one movie, he dressed up like an Airline Pilot, and boarded the Plane that was overtaken by hijackers.

    I maybe am talking too much, but it hurts us all, that America faces these atrocities, and seems nothing but red tape and PC Correctness ties our hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us...shootings.html

    Looks like the 3 hr time period (noted in prior threads) for police response was accurate, one off duty cop did try (clearly not able to hit the target)~ IMO...not something I would consider an adequate response.

    I'm sure that there will be many articles about this shooting....its a news article, so take it for what it is.

    I would guess that the cops who initially showed up had their patrol rifles ... and could not hit the broadside of a barn with them ~ as I have seen with PDs in my area.
    So I guess the saying should be "When seconds count, the police are only hours away"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD51 View Post
    ...Might sound rude, and I can understand caution, but 3 hours!? Geesh.
    Cops aren't pawns. They aren't expendable. It's not all that hard to hold a chokepoint with a rifle when everyone else inside has been disarmed for your convenience. They have no duty to endanger themselves to rescue people. The blame rests with the gun-free zones and the culture of ignorance that we are responsible for our own safety.

    That said, a curse on all cops who support victim-disarmament zones.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    btw, what happened to said off duty inside the venue after he shot at, and missed said bad guy....havent heard one iota about them whatsoever?

    ipse
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    If they knew he was killing people and they waited 3 hours, F 'em and their MRAPS and tacticool gear. The whole thing just blows my mind. I like how the "conservative" media absolves the legislature of all wrong doing. The house and senate republicans are at fault for maintaining these "gun free zones" within the state. You can't fault "full auto liars" (aka democrats). All democrats can do is auto-lie in service of their stupid narrative. The republicans lie and tell the sheeple they value their freedom, then stab them in the back. Always.

    I'm pretty confident there was at least one ho mo at that club who would have been armed if it weren't a state mandated "gun free zone". It may not have had a difference, but that's not the point.
    Last edited by 77zach; 06-18-2016 at 11:30 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    If they knew he was killing people and they waited 3 hours, F 'em and their MRAPS and tacticool gear. The whole thing just blows my mind. I like how the "conservative" media absolves the legislature of all wrong doing. The house and senate republicans are at fault for maintaining these "gun free zones" within the state. You can't fault "full auto liars" (aka democrats). All democrats can do is auto-lie in service of their stupid narrative. The republicans lie and tell the sheeple they value their freedom, then stab them in the back. Always.

    I'm pretty confident there was at least one ho mo at that club who would have been armed if it weren't a state mandated "gun free zone". It may not have had a difference, but that's not the point.
    so then where's the lawsuit?
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    so then where's the lawsuit?
    Who has the money and time to waste on creating bad precedent. There won't be a purge, but if there was, I'd start with the judiciary.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Economics 101

    1. who pays for the nice LEs,feds, workload on coroners, medical providers, ad nauseam?
    2. how much money are the insurance carriers on the hook for death policies, liability claims, ad nauseam?
    3. how much of the money nationally donated and distributed will actually be accounted for ?

    4. how much money is going to be spent on 'investigating' ?

    quote: Florida Assistant State Attorney Kenneth Lewis penned a Facebook post blasting the entire city, which he called a "national embarrassment" and a "melting pot of third-world miscreants and ghetto thugs," WFTV reports. "Downtown Orlando has no bottom," Lewis wrote in the post. "The entire city should be leveled. It is void of any redeeming quality...It is void of culture." And it went on like that. http://www.newser.com/story/226869/f...-facebook.html

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    ...I'm pretty confident there was at least one ... at that club who would have been armed if it weren't a state mandated "gun free zone". It may not have had a difference, but that's not the point.
    Good point, but I'll add that it's not supposed to make a difference to the body count, save one: the person who has a chance to save themselves. Any other lives saved is just pure gravy, and at the responsibly-armed person's discretion.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    One could kill that many people in 3 hours with just one NY magazine... or a bolt action... or a single shot... or a musket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ....
    quote: Florida Assistant State Attorney Kenneth Lewis penned a Facebook post blasting the entire city, which he called a "national embarrassment" and a "melting pot of third-world miscreants and ghetto thugs," WFTV reports. "Downtown Orlando has no bottom," Lewis wrote in the post. "The entire city should be leveled. It is void of any redeeming quality...It is void of culture."

    ipse
    Well he does have a point - there was 'nothing' there prior to 1970 when Disneyworld opened - just grapefruit and orange groves and a few shuffleboard courts...


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    The track playing at the dance club...

    https://youtu.be/rY0WxgSXdEE

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