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Thread: Open Carry Outreach at Cincinnati Pride Festival

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Open Carry Outreach at Cincinnati Pride Festival

    From the event page: https://www.facebook.com/events/821925911245594/

    The purpose of this event is to provide visible outreach to members of the LGBTQ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual, Queer) community, who, like many, are sickened and apprehensive about the injuries and loss of life this past weekend at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando.

    Since the aim of this event is engagement and dialogue regarding self-defense, gun rights & privileges, we will NOT circulate in a large group, but rather will do so singly or groups of two or three.

    >> SIDEARMS ONLY << please.

    Some LGBTQ (or other) Cincinnati Pride attendees may be apprehensive, some may be receptive, and some may be belligerent about our presence - so if you're not prepared to deal with a range of emotions/reactions, ** STAY HOME **.

    Regardless of anyone's feelings, positive or negative, about members of the LGBTQ community, we all share the same inherent right of self-defense.

    This description will be modified as necessary for parking, meetup, timing, etc. reasons, including for example, as responses to queries are received from the Cincinnati Pride organizers and the Cincinnati Police.

    Cincinnati Pride webpage: http://www.cincinnatipride.org/

    Pink Pistols (LGBTQ gun group): http://www.pinkpistols.org/about-the-pink-pistols/

    NO DISCUSSION of the shooter, his religious beliefs, or bashing of inviduals, regardless of their sexual orientation or religion, will be tolerated on this page. Everyone is welcome to post, pro and against this event, and/or the Right To Keep and Bear Arms, BUT... The aim of this event and this page is to encourage >> dialogue and discussion << (not insult), so if you can't control yourself enough to engage in one or both, your post(s) will be removed, and if necessary, you will be reported to Facebook.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    The origin of this Outreach event

    As posted to Facebook:

    After the Pulse nightclub shooting, I read and received a number of communications, including a suggestion that a group of OCers or CCers should volunteer to protect Gay Pride (or similar) events. My response was this: unless I'm a member of a particular group, towards whose members I might feel a protective urge, I'm not a "security guard" for anyone except myself and my family.

    That certainly doesn't mean that I don't feel for those who may be defenseless in certain places or circumstances, but I feel that a person has choices in their lives and at the ballot box, and if they consciously deny themselves (and/or others) various means of effective self-defense - that's on them.

    I also communicated with a member of the LGBTQ community who had been hit hard by the Pulse shooting and other events. While I know that, for a number of reasons, I react differently to such events, the person's reaction was instructive.

    Finally, I became aware of Cincinnati Pride, and after giving it some thought, including how an outreach event like this could be conducted, and how it might be perceived, I decided to move forward.

    ** Again, regardless of anyone's feelings, positive or negative, about members of the LGBTQ community, we all share the same inherent right of self-defense. **
    or endorsed by Cincinnati Pride, or any other entity or organization, unless specifically stated. ***

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    If OP is concerned about being met with aggressive gay folks then maybe being in small groups of 2 or 3 isn't a good idea after all?

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    NO DISCUSSION of the shooter, his religious beliefs, or bashing of inviduals, regardless of their sexual orientation or religion, will be tolerated on this page. Everyone is welcome to post, pro and against this event, and/or the Right To Keep and Bear Arms, BUT... The aim of this event and this page is to encourage >> dialogue and discussion << (not insult), so if you can't control yourself enough to engage in one or both, your post(s) will be removed, and if necessary, you will be reported to Facebook.
    Interesting disclaimer, particularly in light of the straight-bashing crap on Pink Pistols home page.

    Seriously?

    I fully support the right of ALL Americans (U.S. Citizens ONLY) to keep and bear arms.

    Furthermore, I think Pink Pistols is a step in the right direction, as there may indeed be a misconceived notion that only rough and tumble straight males are "allowed" to carry. Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth. Every U.S. Citizen regardless of age, gender, or any and other other discriminating factors, with the sole exception of wrongdoing, should know that they have to exercise their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

    I take exception, however, to Pink Pistols note on the main page of their website: "We no longer believe it is the right of those who hate and fear gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or polyamorous persons to use us as targets for their rage. Self-defense is our RIGHT."

    Speaking for myself and the other 90+% of Americans who do not agree with LGBTQ behavior yet who do NOT "use you as targets for our rage," I think this statement is highly inflammatory, contrary to the stated mission, and totally unwelcome throughout the 2A community. Essentially, they're saying everyone who is not LGBTQ are members of vigilante groups out to hunt them down.

    That's absurd, and quite frankly, that sticks in my craw. It's an affront to those of us who work hard writing to our local, county, state, and federal branches in order to support and defend the United States Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Personally, it sounds paranoid as hell. I went to a conservative cow college that had bloomed over the years into a state university with more than 23,000 students by the time I graduated. While it respected the LGBT groups, it was still highly conservative, with more student Christian groups than fraternities and sororities. I wasn't gay. I did not support those who were, primarily because my religious beliefs require me not to support LGBTQ behavior in any manner. I most certainly DID NOT, however, "hate and fear gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or polyamorous persons to use us as targets for their rage." Again, that's not only absurd, that's a totally unwelcome and insanely false accusation.

    If fact, I spent 27 of the best years of my life sacrifice quite a lot in service to ALL Americans, supporting and defending their Constitutional rights, regardless of their personal beliefs.

    So, if Pink Pistols wants any degree of sympathy from the rest of the 2A community, I would strongly suggest they knock it off with the attitude crap about others always being out to get them. Yes, a small percentage are, but that percentage is very small and dwindling rapidly. The vast majority (90+%), however, ARE NOT. Again, the comment on their website I mentioned earlier is neither warranted nor welcome.

    Have a nice day.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Interesting disclaimer, particularly in light of the straight-bashing crap on Pink Pistols home page.

    Seriously?

    I fully support the right of ALL Americans (U.S. Citizens ONLY) to keep and bear arms.

    Furthermore, I think Pink Pistols is a step in the right direction, as there may indeed be a misconceived notion that only rough and tumble straight males are "allowed" to carry. Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth. Every U.S. Citizen regardless of age, gender, or any and other other discriminating factors, with the sole exception of wrongdoing, should know that they have to exercise their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. ...
    What do the Pink Pistols have to do with anything related to the Outreach event???

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    SNIP

    I take exception, however, to Pink Pistols note on the main page of their website: "We no longer believe it is the right of those who hate and fear gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or polyamorous persons to use us as targets for their rage. Self-defense is our RIGHT."

    Speaking for myself and the other 90+% of Americans who do not agree with LGBTQ behavior yet who do NOT "use you as targets for our rage," I think this statement is highly inflammatory, contrary to the stated mission, and totally unwelcome throughout the 2A community. Essentially, they're saying everyone who is not LGBTQ are members of vigilante groups out to hunt them down.
    SNIP
    I do not at interpret the Pink Pistol page quote in the same way. You yourself, Since9, state that you do not hate and fear members of their group. In my take on their comments, it wouldn't in any way be directed at you.

    I interpret it to mean in a re-wording, "Hey, you people who hate us and would do us harm because we are LGBQT, we will no longer be targets. Our organization exists to help all people of our specific community exercise our right to armed self-defense."

    Yes, that is a narrow focus. But if you read the FB posts on BB62's event page, you would find that many in that community seem pretty narrowly focused on their specific issues. While we would see it as, "Of course any Americans in the LGBQT community have a right to lawful carry and self-defense just as every other American has, what's the problem?", Pink Pistols appears to be fighting a battle of some enshrined, often far left, political views that are often/mostly hostile to 2A. I think that leads to a narrow tailoring of their message. I'm not a member of that community so perhaps I misunderstand, but that is my interpretation of all of this at this point.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    What do the Pink Pistols have to do with anything related to the Outreach event???
    Perhaps you can best answer that, as you provided a link to their site in your opening post about the event.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Is this outreach intended to convince liberals with a gun to not vote for liberals who want to take our guns?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is this outreach intended to convince liberals with a gun to not vote for liberals who want to take our guns?
    The event description, which is in this thread's initial post, make it clear what the Outreach is all about.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    News report + police contact

    Channel 9 (Cincinnati) news report: http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/...ncinnati-pride


    Police Contact

    Earlier today I spoke with CPD Assistant Chief Paul Neudigate. As a member of the FB discussion group pointed out, Neudigate said in the Channel 9 interview "... (the group)has, for the most part, been non-confrontational."

    Reputation is everything when one organizes or participates in events such as these, so as one might imagine I took umbrage - not only because there is no formal"group", but also because I was aware of NO ONE who had been "confrontational"at any event I've organized.

    I pointed out the above, and asked for clarification. He said that what he meant,paraphrasing, was "We don't know exactly who is going to show up, but there have not been issues in the past, and that he expects none this time." He apologized when I told him that his phrasing had caused consternation.

    I'm appreciative and impressed at Lt. Col. Neudigate's responsiveness and professionalism, and will be communicating with him next week about the lack of same on the part of others I contacted with CPD.

    ** Finally, he said he intended to drop by and introduce himself at the assembly point on Saturday. **

    I look forward to meeting him because we've never met in person, but by way of background, he was the commander of District 5 when I put on the Open Carry/Firearm Education Walk at the University of Cincinnati in 2014. He was also very professional and responsive then.


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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Channel 9 (Cincinnati) news report: http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/...ncinnati-pride


    Police Contact

    Earlier today I spoke with CPD Assistant Chief Paul Neudigate. As a member of the FB discussion group pointed out, Neudigate said in the Channel 9 interview "... (the group)has, for the most part, been non-confrontational."

    Reputation is everything when one organizes or participates in events such as these, so as one might imagine I took umbrage - not only because there is no formal"group", but also because I was aware of NO ONE who had been "confrontational"at any event I've organized.

    I pointed out the above, and asked for clarification. He said that what he meant,paraphrasing, was "We don't know exactly who is going to show up, but there have not been issues in the past, and that he expects none this time." He apologized when I told him that his phrasing had caused consternation.

    I'm appreciative and impressed at Lt. Col. Neudigate's responsiveness and professionalism, and will be communicating with him next week about the lack of same on the part of others I contacted with CPD.

    ** Finally, he said he intended to drop by and introduce himself at the assembly point on Saturday. **

    I look forward to meeting him because we've never met in person, but by way of background, he was the commander of District 5 when I put on the Open Carry/Firearm Education Walk at the University of Cincinnati in 2014. He was also very professional and responsive then.

    Congratulations. I wonder if he will make an appearance at your final destination to demonstrate that LE does in fact support all LACs right to peaceably arm them selves under the law. Good PR fro he and thee. Good luck and please let us all know how events transpired.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Another semi-accurate news report: http://www.fox19.com/story/32257532/...r-pride-parade

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Congratulations. I wonder if he will make an appearance at your final destination to demonstrate that LE does in fact support all LACs right to peaceably arm them selves under the law. Good PR fro he and thee. Good luck and please let us all know how events transpired.
    Don't want to speak for BB62, because I wasn't there today. However, we are personal friends and I think he'd want people here at OCDO to know that the event went well. This much I am sure of, from reading short after action reports BB put up on Facebook. He'll doubtless be along soon enough to fill in details.

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    After event report

    As posted to Facebook (and btw, the Lying Mommies were represented in the parade...grrrr):

    FIRST, my deep appreciation to Joe Beresford, Cory Curl, Chrissy Black, David Faehr, Aaron Spalding, Don Stoller, and Donovan Corcoran.

    THANK YOU all for coming, despite all the hate and misinformation thrown in our collective direction.

    I got to Pride early and watched the tail end of the parade with a friend of mine who has friends in the LGBT community. Proceeding down to the festival site, a few people gave me a thumbs up sign, and some others said things like "Nice to see you carrying!"

    At the festival site I met Joe Beresford, who had also come early. We walked from the west end of the festival to the east, looped around and headed back to the meetup point. We ran into CPD Asst. Chief Paul Neudigate, who asked if we had had any problems. We told him no. He said "Great!" and indicated that there was no need to meet the group and 2 PM, but I asked him to do so anyway, which he did. He briefly spoke with the group and indicated that all the CPD officers, as well as the Sheriff's Deputies on duty knew the legality of our open carry. What a class act.

    We met at 2 PM and broke into three groups. I'm sure they'll be along to report their experiences.

    By the time Joe and I first ran Lt. Col. Neudigate, we had run into into the first of *at least* 15 people we would run into during our visit. People either asked questions about open carry, told us they were carrying concealed, or indicated how pleased they were to see us carrying openly. One even caught up with Joe and I to thank us for doing so, in the process telling us that his friends had no idea OC was legal. Joe took pictures of me with many such people (Thanks Joe!!), including the gentleman who initiated a conversation with us while we were resting and hiding from the sun.

    There were at least three people who asked about the legality of open carrying and indicated that they had thought about either doing so or getting a concealed handgun license. Sometimes they told us of their experiences where they wished they had a better form of protection available to them. We talked about the legalities and possible financial exposure of using a gun for protection.

    Also, we ran into Desi Benton, one of the discussion group members, and had a worthwhile conversation.

    Of the people Joe and I spoke with, a few people had heard of this Outreach event - very few.

    As those who have attended previous "sidearms only" events can attest, most people have no idea/pay no attention to the fact that one is carrying a sidearm, even when the crowd is relatively open. In conversation, one short of stature gentleman (I'm 6' 9") spoke to me for a good five minutes before his friend pointed out to him that I was armed. He had no idea!

    According to the people I spoke with, the crowd was larger than normal, and NO ONE (except the crazy lady who accosted Joe and I as we were leaving) said anything negative to Joe and me, or later to an acquaintance of his who we met, and who walked around with us for a while. Joe's friend, a community member, was looking for people to react negatively to our open carrying, but no one did.

    BOTTOM LINE - while there is no doubt that some people are fearful of guns, and that some people may have stayed home due to unbelievably overblown rhetoric and inaccurate representations, its clear to me that such things were nothing but a smoke screen.

    The only person who I felt represented a "threat" at Cincinnati Pride was the woman Joe and I "met" at the east end of the Festival just prior to leaving. It simply wasn't possible to talk rationally to the woman, even though I indicated that I wanted to have a conversation with her. She simply quoted many of the "talking points" repeated here and elsewhere, and threw insult after insult in our direction. She only left us alone when Joe threatened to have a police officer speak to her. I'm sure he'll have more to say on the matter.

    As far as I'm concerned, while the conversations on-site were less numerous than I had hoped for, the civil dialogue here (when present) and in the discussion group has been more than worthwhile. Add to that the knowledge that the scare tactics of some were shown for what they were.

    Maybe this year's experience will open the minds of the Cincinnati Pride people and CPD's LGBT "liaison officer" - and maybe not.

    THANKS AGAIN to all who attended or took part in the civil dialogue here. Your contribution was considerable, here on FB and on-site. These events are a testimony to you, your conduct, and your presence.

    Again, a HUGE "thank you" to Joe Beresford, who, with others at other events, has been and continues to be a great contributor to the success of various events - taking pictures, coordinating, etc.

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    Based on everything I have seen, heard, read and such about OC folks being there at that thing it all ended up being much ado about nothing.

    As is about always best.

    Nemo

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    ...

    As those who have attended previous "sidearms only" events can attest, most people have no idea/pay no attention to the fact that one is carrying a sidearm, even when the crowd is relatively open. In conversation, one short of stature gentleman (I'm 6' 9") spoke to me for a good five minutes before his friend pointed out to him that I was armed. He had no idea!

    ...
    Being that your pistol is not taped to your forehead it is understandable that he did not notice.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Being that your pistol is not taped to your forehead it is understandable that he did not notice.
    actually, might pay to see that...

    ipse
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    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Pictures!

    ALL of the people below (and these aren't all the pictures), except my new woman and the Asst. Chief, commented positively about our OCing, without being prompted.


    My new woman...




    Part of the group of eight of us




    Cincinnati Assistant Police Chief Paul Neudigate - a real class act




    This fellow was standing by as I was being interviewed, and indicated he was CCing




    One of the people who took part in the discussion group I created (I had to essentially shut down the FB event page because of "drive-by" postings, and individuals who refused to be civil)










    This fellow caught up with us *just* to say how glad he was to see someone OCing






    A few more of the group visible


  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    I had a pleasant conversation about Orlando and the danger of "gun-free" zones







    It's never a bad thing to end with a picture of attractive women...


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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    +1 BB62. Glad it went so well!
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    I am glad you assisted and pulled it off w/o a hitch...

    tip of the hat to you and your band of...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Just before the Orlando massacre I met up with my son in San Francisco who is considering moving there.

    A tourist with a bunch of older children picked a fight with me in a Chinatown restaurant because he mistook my son as my gay lover. Maybe he confused Saddam with Sodom. More likely, San Francisco was probably reminding him uncomfortably about a bad experience he had in a high school locker room.

    It was probably a good thing that he picked me to pick on: had he pulled this with a genuine member of the eight pack abs SFO gay community, it would have taken considerable time for the San Francisco cops to have sorted him and his family out from the Dim Sum.

    Embarrassing the hell out of him was probably one of the best things I did on this trip. Next time he visits SFO, he is not likely to be so oriented towards gay bashing. He may find that his children's schedules have filled up considerably for vacations with dad for . . . say the next ten years.

    Folks being vigilant about their civil rights -- to self-defense and self-determination -- have much more in common with each other than they do with the bible thumpers.

    Never forget that.
    Last edited by The Donkey; 06-29-2016 at 11:35 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I had a pleasant conversation about Orlando and the danger of "gun-free" zones
    +1
    Definitely looked like a day to wear a wide-brimmed straw hat.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is this outreach intended to convince liberals with a gun to not vote for liberals who want to take our guns?
    Most homosexuals do not yet have guns. Helping them into the RKBA / self-defense community gives them what may be--for many--their first or most powerful reason to reconsider where they cast their votes.

    Alternatively, they may persuade their favored candidates (local and State anyway) to stop attacking RKBA. Logically, the party that claims to be the champion of civil rights should be a strong supporter of RKBA rather than attacking it. We have one liberal democrat in the Utah legislature who is quite supportive of RKBA. She comes from a union background. I should be thrilled if the Democrats would pick up the banner of pro-RKBA. I don't expect it to happen. But I'd be thrilled if they did.

    If nothing else, a couple of homosexuals (or small women, racial minorities, the elderly, or disabled) present a very powerful and different message to the media and legislative bodies when speaking of their need for self-defense than does the stereo-typical middle-aged, middle-class, conservative, heterosexual, white, male gun owner.

    There is very little downside to these efforts beyond a possible waste of individual time. There is the potential for a significant upside in a couple of different directions. Those who organize and participate in these efforts are to be commended.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is this outreach intended to convince liberals with a gun to not vote for liberals who want to take our guns?
    I felt I clearly described the purpose of the event in the Facebook "About" section, quoted in the initial post here on OCDO:

    "The purpose of this event is to provide visible outreach to members of the LGBTQ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual, Queer) community, who, like many, are sickened and apprehensive about the injuries and loss of life this past weekend at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando.

    Since the aim of this event is engagement and dialogue regarding self-defense, gun rights & privileges..."

    No convincing, just dialogue about the above listed items.

    This may or may not result in one or more of the following:

    - Education about rights, privileges, firearms, and/or gun owners, enabling an individual to be a better prepared consumer of (biased) information about such things

    - Stereotypes questioned/broken

    - An willingness to be introduced to shooting

    - A change in voting pattern

    Etc. etc.


    Dialogue may produce all sorts of things, but the way I approach it is not meant to convince anyone of anything. To cause someone to question beliefs or be interested in learning more about one or more things - ABSOLUTELY.

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