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Thread: Wayne County's 'restrictive' PPP for 18-20 yo

  1. #1
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Wayne County's 'restrictive' PPP for 18-20 yo

    Wayne county has put their PPP & CHW application processes on the internet (bout time actually) and while looking at the PPP guidance i stared in utter shock at the following:

    quote:
    Applicant Must:
    • eighteen to twenty (18-20) year olds can apply for a restricted permit;
    unquote

    quick review of 14-40x series, specifically 14-404, of the NC statutes, i was unable to find any reference to 18-20 yo, or a 'restrictive' permit for this age group of NC citizens.

    a quick email was just sent to Sheriff Pierce requesting his clarification regarding what must be an 'administrative' oversight since the statement clearly violates NC statutes.

    slight of hand? possibly!

    imposition by a deputy to apply a personal standard? probably!

    administrative error? doubtful!

    ipse

    added: review of AG's published guidance on firearm laws found this:

    VI. AGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PURCHASE AND POSSESSION OF
    WEAPONS
    North Carolina law does not currently address specific age requirements for the purchase of
    weapons. Rather, it looks to the federal standards for such restrictions. Under federal law, 18
    U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to
    persons under the age of twenty-one (21). Further, all other purchasers of shotguns and rifles are
    required to be at least eighteen (18) years of age. Therefore, while a pistol purchase permit can
    be issued to an individual eighteen (18) years of age or older, such persons aged eighteen (18),
    nineteen (19), and twenty (20) could not use the permit to purchase a handgun from a federally
    licensed firearms dealer.

    http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx
    Last edited by solus; 06-17-2016 at 10:01 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Seems that there is a matter of interupt-per-tation being applied to what the Sheriff's Dept. thinks or wishes the law to be.

    Color of law does not equal the law.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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  3. #3
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    received the following note from Sheriff Pierce at 0530l

    xxxxxxxx
    Thank you for your question. In North Carolina, while someone under the age of 21 can not purchase from a Federal Firearms Dealer, a person age 18 or older may purchase from a private individual who legally is possessing a hand gun. I hope this answers your question.
    Sheriff Larry Pierce




    Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone

    my response:

    Sheriff Pierce, thank you for your prompt response…however, and forgive my confusion factor, but I am still confused under your website’s use of the term ‘a restricted’ PPP.


    Is your office issuing a completely different form/permit to 18-20 yo?


    Regards

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    upon my last request sheriff pierce's response:

    No. It's just to let the applicant know that there are additional restrictions for individuals under the age of 21. Which is that they can only purchase from an individual. We explain this if a person does not know the law but we have had very few under age 21 to apply. Most people think of hand gun purchases as 21. If a parent or someone gives a gun to an individual they should obtain a permit to transfer it but we know that doesn't usually happen.


    Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member CDT COX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Wayne county has put their PPP & CHW application processes on the internet (bout time actually) and while looking at the PPP guidance i stared in utter shock at the following:

    quote:
    Applicant Must:
    • eighteen to twenty (18-20) year olds can apply for a restricted permit;
    unquote

    quick review of 14-40x series, specifically 14-404, of the NC statutes, i was unable to find any reference to 18-20 yo, or a 'restrictive' permit for this age group of NC citizens.

    a quick email was just sent to Sheriff Pierce requesting his clarification regarding what must be an 'administrative' oversight since the statement clearly violates NC statutes.

    slight of hand? possibly!

    imposition by a deputy to apply a personal standard? probably!

    administrative error? doubtful!

    ipse

    added: review of AG's published guidance on firearm laws found this:

    VI. AGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PURCHASE AND POSSESSION OF
    WEAPONS
    North Carolina law does not currently address specific age requirements for the purchase of
    weapons. Rather, it looks to the federal standards for such restrictions. Under federal law, 18
    U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to
    persons under the age of twenty-one (21). Further, all other purchasers of shotguns and rifles are
    required to be at least eighteen (18) years of age. Therefore, while a pistol purchase permit can
    be issued to an individual eighteen (18) years of age or older, such persons aged eighteen (18),
    nineteen (19), and twenty (20) could not use the permit to purchase a handgun from a federally
    licensed firearms dealer.

    http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Wayne county has put their PPP & CHW application processes on the internet (bout time actually) and while looking at the PPP guidance i stared in utter shock at the following:

    quote:
    Applicant Must:
    • eighteen to twenty (18-20) year olds can apply for a restricted permit;
    unquote

    quick review of 14-40x series, specifically 14-404, of the NC statutes, i was unable to find any reference to 18-20 yo, or a 'restrictive' permit for this age group of NC citizens.

    a quick email was just sent to Sheriff Pierce requesting his clarification regarding what must be an 'administrative' oversight since the statement clearly violates NC statutes.

    slight of hand? possibly!

    imposition by a deputy to apply a personal standard? probably!

    administrative error? doubtful!

    ipse

    added: review of AG's published guidance on firearm laws found this:

    VI. AGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PURCHASE AND POSSESSION OF
    WEAPONS
    North Carolina law does not currently address specific age requirements for the purchase of
    weapons. Rather, it looks to the federal standards for such restrictions. Under federal law, 18
    U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to
    persons under the age of twenty-one (21). Further, all other purchasers of shotguns and rifles are
    required to be at least eighteen (18) years of age. Therefore, while a pistol purchase permit can
    be issued to an individual eighteen (18) years of age or older, such persons aged eighteen (18),
    nineteen (19), and twenty (20) could not use the permit to purchase a handgun from a federally
    licensed firearms dealer.

    http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx
    It's not Wayne County's fault that it is restricted, the Gun Control Act of 1968 states:
    "Under the Gun Control Act, a federally licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or collector shall not sell or deliver any rifle or shotgun or ammunition for rifle or shotgun to any individual less than 18 years of age, nor any handgun or ammunition for a handgun to any individual less than 21 years of age."
    So even though the state of NC allows persons 18-20 to purchase and possess handguns, it is against federal/state law for a licensed dealer to sell one to them, so they may only legally acquire one by manner of private transaction. That is the restriction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny336 View Post
    It's not Wayne County's fault that it is restricted, the Gun Control Act of 1968 states:
    "Under the Gun Control Act, a federally licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or collector shall not sell or deliver any rifle or shotgun or ammunition for rifle or shotgun to any individual less than 18 years of age, nor any handgun or ammunition for a handgun to any individual less than 21 years of age."
    So even though the state of NC allows persons 18-20 to purchase and possess handguns, it is against federal/state law for a licensed dealer to sell one to them, so they may only legally acquire one by manner of private transaction. That is the restriction.
    The commentary was not about age requirements, or their origins. It was due to the phrase "restricted permit" being included with the application. NC statutes contain no such description of the PPP, and Solus questioned the Wayne County sheriff's office about it. It would seem the sheriff is doing what he can to reduce confusion about purchase restrictions.

    Welcome to the forum.

  8. #8
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny336 View Post
    It's not Wayne County's fault that it is restricted, the Gun Control Act of 1968 states:
    "Under the Gun Control Act, a federally licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or collector shall not sell or deliver any rifle or shotgun or ammunition for rifle or shotgun to any individual less than 18 years of age, nor any handgun or ammunition for a handgun to any individual less than 21 years of age."
    So even though the state of NC allows persons 18-20 to purchase and possess handguns, it is against federal/state law for a licensed dealer to sell one to them, so they may only legally acquire one by manner of private transaction. That is the restriction.
    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    The commentary was not about age requirements, or their origins. It was due to the phrase "restricted permit" being included with the application. NC statutes contain no such description of the PPP, and Solus questioned the Wayne County sheriff's office about it. It would seem the sheriff is doing what he can to reduce confusion about purchase restrictions.
    Welcome to the forum.
    BC is absolutely correct in his analysis and thanks for the input BC, it is spot on and appreciated.

    johnny, the TarHeel state is one where 18-20 yr olds can OC a HANDGUN, so as you pointed out, a FFL is unable to sell a HANDGUN (FFLs are able to sell rifles and shotguns to this age group) so where does this age group get their handgun?

    one methodology is to be 'gifted' one from your immediate caretakers (older sibling is shaky) who fill out the FFL's 4473 and in the privacy of your home you are presented the HANDGUN to love and cherish. now how do you prove to the nice LE who has just stopped you to query the 18-20 yo about the HANDGUN they are carrying with bravado? well a note carried in the wallet from the immediate caregiver stating they have gifted the HANDGUN to you and you have not 'borrowed' it to showoff. additionally, proof of a completion of a pistol course should assist in calming the nice LE down.

    according to NC statute 14-402, quote: It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol, unless:
    (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase. unquote.

    one option is "borrow" their caregivers. not a good idea if there is tension with the caregivers over carrying their HANDGUN!!

    this age group is not able, except special circumstances to get a CHP which leaves the PPP as the vehicle for this age group to obtain a HANDGUN through private sale. PPP is obtained from the Sheriff, and given to the seller but make sure you receive a bill of sale to show where you got your possibly stolen HANDGUN. (Personally know where large small town local FFL purchased a handgun from a walk in, turned around and sold it, that individual got stopped, handed over the firearm to the officer where it showed up as stolen, and individual was then promptly handcuffed and taken away. seems once the nice LEs contacted the FFL, they were able to contact the original owner who 'thought it was stolen' and reported it a year ago then found it again and 'forgot' they reported it stolen(?))

    one final conception to consider...FFLs can't sell 18-20 yo HANDGUN ammo either.

    remember i am not an attorney

    ipse

    ps: then are annotation(s) on the 14-402 statute indicating this jim crow statute existed before the GA quote1919, c. 197, s. 1; C.S., s. 5106; 1923, c. 106; 1947, c. 781; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1971, c. 133, s. 2; 1979, c. 895, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 287, s. 1; c. 539, s. 284; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2004-183, s. 1; 2004-203, s. 1; 2009-6, s. 2; 2011-56, s. 1.) unquote
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    BC is absolutely correct in his analysis and thanks for the input BC, it is spot on and appreciated.

    johnny, the TarHeel state is one where 18-20 yr olds can OC a HANDGUN, so as you pointed out, a FFL is unable to sell a HANDGUN (FFLs are able to sell rifles and shotguns to this age group) so where does this age group get their handgun?

    one methodology is to be 'gifted' one from your immediate caretakers (older sibling is shaky) who fill out the FFL's 4473 and in the privacy of your home you are presented the HANDGUN to love and cherish. now how do you prove to the nice LE who has just stopped you to query the 18-20 yo about the HANDGUN they are carrying with bravado? well a note carried in the wallet from the immediate caregiver stating they have gifted the HANDGUN to you and you have not 'borrowed' it to showoff. additionally, proof of a completion of a pistol course should assist in calming the nice LE down.

    according to NC statute 14-402, quote: It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol, unless:
    (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase. unquote.

    one option is "borrow" their caregivers. not a good idea if there is tension with the caregivers over carrying their HANDGUN!!

    this age group is not able, except special circumstances to get a CHP which leaves the PPP as the vehicle for this age group to obtain a HANDGUN through private sale. PPP is obtained from the Sheriff, and given to the seller but make sure you receive a bill of sale to show where you got your possibly stolen HANDGUN. (Personally know where large small town local FFL purchased a handgun from a walk in, turned around and sold it, that individual got stopped, handed over the firearm to the officer where it showed up as stolen, and individual was then promptly handcuffed and taken away. seems once the nice LEs contacted the FFL, they were able to contact the original owner who 'thought it was stolen' and reported it a year ago then found it again and 'forgot' they reported it stolen(?))

    one final conception to consider...FFLs can't sell 18-20 yo HANDGUN ammo either.

    remember i am not an attorney

    ipse

    ps: then are annotation(s) on the 14-402 statute indicating this jim crow statute existed before the GA quote1919, c. 197, s. 1; C.S., s. 5106; 1923, c. 106; 1947, c. 781; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1971, c. 133, s. 2; 1979, c. 895, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 287, s. 1; c. 539, s. 284; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2004-183, s. 1; 2004-203, s. 1; 2009-6, s. 2; 2011-56, s. 1.) unquote

    Yes, exactly, that age group is restricted to private party transactions only (which still require a PPP in NC). That is the "restricted" part, and at least Wayne County recognizes that. Most counties probably don't even advertise that 18-20 yo persons are rescricted on where they may purchase a handgun, but I didn't feel like the Sheriff explained that especially well in his reply, so I was just adding that it's not like WC is doing anything different than any other county in NC. It is still the exact same PPP (which could be used to purchase from an FFL if they retain the permit until age 21), so maybe they should word it differently, because it's not like they are issued some special "restricted permit", they are issued the same PPP as anyone else, just restricted by law as where they can purchase from. Which I think is pretty silly, because as you mentioned, private party firearm transactions can be pretty sketchy unless you know exactly where the firearm came from. I've always wondered if there was some way to check serial #'s before buying a used one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    The commentary was not about age requirements, or their origins. It was due to the phrase "restricted permit" being included with the application. NC statutes contain no such description of the PPP, and Solus questioned the Wayne County sheriff's office about it. It would seem the sheriff is doing what he can to reduce confusion about purchase restrictions.

    Welcome to the forum.
    Right, I was just saying how the phrase "restricted permit" only applies to where an 18-20 YO may purchase a handgun. That is the only restriction, so I definitely agree they should change the language, because it's not like they are issued some special "restricted permit", they are issued the same PPP (or JCP as my buddy calls it) as anyone else, they are just restricted as to where they may purchase a handgun. Maybe they should change it to say *with purchase restrictions.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny336 View Post
    Yes, exactly, that age group is restricted to private party transactions only (which still require a PPP in NC). That is the "restricted" part, and at least Wayne County recognizes that. Most counties probably don't even advertise that 18-20 yo persons are rescricted on where they may purchase a handgun, but I didn't feel like the Sheriff explained that especially well in his reply, so I was just adding that it's not like WC is doing anything different than any other county in NC. It is still the exact same PPP (which could be used to purchase from an FFL if they retain the permit until age 21), so maybe they should word it differently, because it's not like they are issued some special "restricted permit", they are issued the same PPP as anyone else, just restricted by law as where they can purchase from. Which I think is pretty silly, because as you mentioned, private party firearm transactions can be pretty sketchy unless you know exactly where the firearm came from. I've always wondered if there was some way to check serial #'s before buying a used one.
    some of the Sheriffs (western side) steadfastly refuse to issue ppp to this age group. darn they begrudgingly issue chps for goodness sake!!

    Sheriff Pierce was polite in personally answering my query, which actually took me by surprise, and the answer was a kinda...'cuz i can' response.

    as previously discussed, the only enity who can access th database is strictly LE. FFLs are denied access.

    sidebar...i'm not about to traipse into the lair w/unloaded firearm(s) and ask...Yo deputy dog...can you run these here shootin irons fore me? nope, not even on the bucklist.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    CDT COX and Solus - please take your personal remarks/conversations to PM.

    Remember that the Forum Rules apply there too.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ... now how do you prove to the nice LE who has just stopped you to query the 18-20 yo about the HANDGUN they are carrying with bravado? well a note carried in the wallet from the immediate caregiver stating they have gifted the HANDGUN to you and you have not 'borrowed' it to showoff. additionally, proof of a completion of a pistol course should assist in calming the nice LE down.
    ...
    on what grounds would a cop have to demand proof of ownership from anyone carrying a handgun, regardless of age? in order to run serial numbers, they have to seize the handgun. In order to seize, they need PC. Otherwise, it should be "Am I being detained?" repeated ad nauseum

  14. #14
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    on what grounds would a cop have to demand proof of ownership from anyone carrying a handgun, regardless of age? in order to run serial numbers, they have to seize the handgun. In order to seize, they need PC. Otherwise, it should be "Am I being detained?" repeated ad nauseum
    officer: thank you, but for my safety, i am asking you to hand your handgun to me.

    JQPublic: i do not consent to your request.

    conversation then rolls down hill and JQPublic ends up sitting on the side of the road like a student outside the principal's office or handcuffed in the back of vehicle while the officer runs the gun...

    grounds...officer safety,

    JQPublic's continued objection ~ you are hiding something OH lookie. PC!

    officer: database show your handgun is stolen, it is being confiscated & you are under arrest for stolen property.

    Later...
    officer's supervisor to officer...i ran that handgun and it didn't show stolen...

    officer: really, it did when i checked it on the side of the road...perhaps i mistyped in the s/n...opps!

    ipse

    quote: All three voluntarily came to police headquarters for questioning that night, Lt. Richard Willoby said. The three cooperated with police, and no charges were filed.

    .
    Willoby said police took photographs of the car and the weapons to complete a report to the Cabinet for Health and Family Services because of the infant in the car. unquote
    KY forum thread about preppers at walmart

    pray tell DMatting, where was the RAS/PC to take fotos of the firearms and car let alone follow down to PD hq to answer questions.
    newthread
    Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/c...#storylink=cpy


    Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/c...#storylink=cpy
    Last edited by solus; 08-01-2016 at 10:39 PM. Reason: added real world example of compliance w/o RAS
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  15. #15
    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    those morons volunteered their rights away.

    give the cops an inch and they will take the mile.

    your scenario of detention for "officer safety" was funny, tho.

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